L: - that these things work. That when we educate and we give information to young people to make decisions, that they end up making the healthier decision.

K: Yes. There are some great books that I've read, and one of the more formative books that I've read was a book written by Feather Berkower, she's actually in Boulder, Colorado. It was talking about the words that we can use to talk to kids about keeping our bodies safe. And the big thing is that this isn't on the kid's to report to us; this is on adults to keep kids safe, but the kids needed to words to come to us.

And so, she will talk to us about things like body parts using the correct terms. So if a child goes to a teacher and says, "My dad's touching my cookie," the teacher may not equate "cookie" with "vagina." But if you have a child who goes up to a teacher and says, "My dad's touching my vagina," that teacher - although now they're in a position to have to handle what this child's telling them, that child has used an accurate term that clearly relays what's going on. And so, Feather talks about that.

She also talks about using-, never keeping secrets, only keeping surprises, and surprises are good things. And so, I remember when my child was in kindergarten they were learning sounds and they were doing the "secret sounds" - which was like an "s-h" or a "t-h" -  and I remember about having a panic attack, I'm like, "We don't keep secrets!" Because she came home and she's like, "I'm learning secret sounds," I'm like, "No!" [laughs] And I'm not going to throw off the education system and say, "There are no secret sounds" - it wouldn't be appropriate to call them "surprise sounds" -  but we talk about how that's just a language thing, that's just a learning thing.

But in real life, we're not keeping secrets, because if my child is the type of child who's really good at keeping secrets, it's going to make her a really great target for a predator who understands that she keeps secrets. But if somebody were to say, "I'm gonna give you an extra cookie, and you need to keep this a secret from your mom," she's going to respond back, "We don't keep secrets."

Feather also has a lot of really great recommendations. And when I read this book, I was like, "Why doesn't everybody -

K: And so that reaction from the trusted adult is so important. And so this kid had to make a really humble phone call, I mean, he's the one who ended up calling 9-1-1 to say, "Hey, I need some help over here." So, I actually talked to the kid's mom and went and met up with him in person and brought my computer to him to be able to grab some information off of his phone. And unfortunately, in this situation - as so many of these situations happen - the offender was overseas.

And so, I can refer this to Interpol, but it may be a country where this isn't illegal, they may be buried under so many layers of internet protection that it's just not worth our time and effort to get back to that offender. And so, a lot of times it's kind of like, "Hey, you did the right thing, sorry about your luck. Yes, your photos are potentially out there forever." It's a really, really difficult lesson.

And, once these kids' images are on the internet, there are studies showing that once these images of these kids are out there, that it produces anxiety that's unlike hands-on sexual abuse because they're afraid that places that they go, somebody might recognize their face. And so, it produces often longer-term anxiety, even through adulthood. And so, we need to make sure that our kids are willing to talk to us about this, and as adults, we are willing to hear what they say.

L: I am so intrigued by the prevention aspect and wanting to build language for children so that they have the skills-, they know what to say to go to a safe adult, explain what they're afraid of, or negotiate and say, "Hey, this person is sending me pictures and asking me for pictures; is that something that people do? And what are the consequences?"

I'm also really curious in your trainings or in your practice how you separate education from victim-blaming. So like, "Here, kiddo. Here's all the things that you should know to protect yourself. And it is not your fault if it happens."

K: Oh, yeah. One of the things that I tell kids who do come into my caseload -