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 (00:00) to (02:00)

[music and singing]  -when you wish upon a star- [recorded voice talking with music in background] Now we want you to share with us our latest and greatest dream, Disneyland! [intro music] "just go to Action Park, there's no other park like it." "Six Flags Great Adventure!

It's not a world away." (?~0:23)King's island  "we will officially open universl studios, florida." "hello, i'm michael eisner" 
[music] "now, here's your host!"

hi, and welcome back to defuntland podcast. my name is Kevin Perjurer. today we have a very very special guest star, Mr. hank green. hank how're you doing today?

Hank: I'm good. I'm good. I like your podcast because it helps me understand how to pronounce your name.

K: [laughs] that is that's what everybody does and they all sorts of come back and then like what? just Kev, KP, it's whatever. I've actually been... of course if I've I was gonna write like a bio, like cause sometimes like if i have like imagine you're on or someone of or that sort of be like uh, they've worked on this attraction and this attraction and so i usually do that with anybody but I didn't know what to write for yours, cause there's you do so so much and so, the best thing i can come up with is in like the "mid to late 2000s hank and john green invented youtube again, but the right way and brought this wonderful landscape for education youtube. 

H: Well, and then someone else invented it other ways. it was invented many different times by many different people like us. um, yeah, we were making youtube videos for a long long time and uh, and when we first started to see as like an opportunity for educational content, um, i don't think that we, you know, we obviously didn't understand like what, what it was gonna be and how it was gonna grow and how, like what a huge part of platform that it would be, and how channels like yours would fit into that landscape, um but...

 (02:00) to (04:00)

But it has been very gratifying and exciting to watch that grow and to--and also like, just as a consumer of content, to have all of this great stuff in the world where I can, you know, indulge in my desire to know weird ephemera from every part of, you know, human creation and beyond.

K: Absolutely, and so I feel like I have some sort of debt or just a thank you for creating this, or at least, you know, you played a giant role in this.  Making sure YouTube was not just people following down and cat videos, although those are great.

H: Right.

K: But like, there's a huge uptick in people that are coming for all sorts of content and then, of course, you know, that allows Theme Park History, I guess, so thank you.

H: To be a viable thing.  Well, I'll take my 10%.

K: Yes.

H: I'll let you know where to send it and--but, to your earlier point, I feel like my bio should officially become "Hank Green has lived his life in such a way as to make it very difficult to write a bio about him," which is not like, that's not like, so much a joke as it is kind of reality.  I do have, like, one of the things that I have always defaulted toward was to try and do it weird and so oftentimes people will be like, so do you wanna do this thing?  And I'm like, well, I--but only if we can figure out how to do it weird.  I don't wanna--I--like, I don't wanna, you know, follow the same path and if it's gonna be a little more work or even like, less work to do it weird, let's do it weird, but if it's gonna be, you know, just boring 'do it normal', then um, I don't feel like we're learning anything.  I feel like we're just uh, making money or something, and I'd rather do it weird.

K: You make money?

H: You make money!

 (04:00) to (06:00)

K: Ok, fine, fine.  Shh.  

H: Don't let anyone know!  I need to, yeah, I mean, the--the--well, I mean, obviously like, I have also lived my life in a way where I did not put money first, but um, but money--but, yeah, I have--

K: Of course.

H: --made money well.  It's been, uh, a great couple of years in that regard, and now I'm like, okay, I've gone from--this is such a wonderful thing--I've gone from like, worrying about not having enough money to worrying about what to do with the money I have, which is a really cool transition and also, like, its own kind of stress.  

K: Oh, for sure.  That's--that's the dream, though, is that you mean, especially as a creative person, and that's why--

H: Yeah.  Yeah.

K: And so of course, this is like the first plug for the book that you just wrote, which is An Absolutely Remarkable Thing.

H: Hit me with as many plugs as you can.  (?~5:02)

K: I'm gonna tell--you wanna hear your--I think, I hope--I wanna, 'cause, like you said, I love doing things in weird ways and especially unique ways, but the very nature of theme park history documentaries, trying to take them seriously is weird, but as far as this goes, I'm gonna give you--I read the book.  I did not read it myself.  I bought it on Audible, and so if you have an Audible coupon code, I don't, here's your chance.  But the--

H: Why don't you have an Audible coupon code?!  

K: I don't know!  

H: Are you--are you--you're not a true internet creator yet.  It hasn't happened!  

K: Yeah, that's--

H: That is the indoctrination.  They hit you with a fish and they give you an Audible coupon code.  

K: And wake up in a dimly lit room and they just, they chant "".  I'm actually getting one later this month, funnily enough.

H: Okay.  Alright, great, great.  

K: And so I listened to it on Audible and I'm sure you've--you showed up eventually, which was interesting.

 (06:00) to (08:00)

H: Yeah, uh-huh.  Surprise.  I guess it's a little bit meant to be a surprise.  I talked about it beforehand but uh, but yeah, I think that it--I hope that it doesn't take people out of the story mostly.

K: No, it didn't.  It didn't.  For me, it was more of I was worried because whenever, usually, like, it says like, an author and then on Audbile especially, it'll be like, oh, and the author is also gonna say something.  Then it'll usually be like an acknowledgments.  It's like, thanks, mom!

H: Yeah.

K: And then, they'll be like "And that's Audible" and like, it moves on.  But no, that actually worked really well, but that's way into spoilers, so that didn't take me out, but the person, the other person, the girl that was reading it--

H: Kris--yeah, Kristin C.  

K: She sounds so much like, I'm gonna mispronounce the actress' name, Stephanie Beatriz from Brooklyn 99, I don't know if you ever watch the show, or BoJack Horseman now.

H: Ohh, no.

K: And it was so interesting, because it's not every character she does, but there's one character and it's the main character, April May, that sounds--that the way, the inflection, I was like, oh my gosh!  And so, that gave me an interesting mental image to have one of my favorite TV show characters take on your book, but back to the point we were talking about with creating and YouTube is that you were mentioning like, you know, money, and now you get to decide rather--the creative projects drive the money, now you have money to drive your creative projects. 

H: Yeah.

K: Which is, jealous.  But uh--

H: Well, let me know what ideas you have.  

K: Oh, don't tempt me.  Like, you would have to block me on Twitter or every day--but yeah, so that was really interesting because as the book really touches on, you know, fame and especially in the social media world, I don't look at the people that I talk to as, you know, famous people or you know, just cause I, you know, you or Jenni or, you know, if I ever have the opportunity to talk to other YouTubers. 

 (08:00) to (10:00)

Like, I don't look at them necessarily as famous people, and that--and I always forget that sometimes.  I look at them as like, creative people that like, I can just like, oh my gosh, finally, other creative people!  Because, I mean, as a creative person, I'm sure you recognize that not everyone is, and so that the question is, when you're writing this book about fame and social media and then you are also like, doing something like this with me, another YouTuber, how do you look at that?  Like, are you on or are you off or is it mixed?

H: Uhhhh, I don't know what 'on' and 'off' really means.  I--like, I am, you know, sitting here creating the podcast.  I'm thinking about like, the audience of Kevin Perjurer and like, he makes content that I like and I want him to like me.  We've never talked before at length and so like, I want that to be a good experience, but I'm alos aware that there's an audience and I'm afraid that they're gonna think something about me and I wanna, like, make them think good things about me, but I'm also like, you know, all at the same time, I'm just like, here I am.  I'm going to have to like, rely on, you know, the systems that I use for communication like all of the structures that I have built that allow me to communicate more efficiently.  Everything from like, all the words that I've learned to the sentence structures that I'm comfortable with and I'm gonna be relying on like, the actual information that I know and I'm gonna be relying on like, my actual worldview and values and so, like, there's--like, it's all in there at the same time, and also now I'm analyzing it while I'm talking about which is extra difficult, so thanks for that!  And yeah, and so like, the--it--there is a performative aspect, I think, to anytime I am like, aware that I'm being recorded and I also know that like, having had a lot of like, podcast conversations, both like, weekly with my wife on our podcast Delete This and with my brother on Dear Hank and John, and then a lot of other people, you know, in one form or another, I, like, I know that once the record button is off, like, it changes.  

 (10:00) to (12:00)

It does, it is different, and I think that part of that is like, there are things you, like, like, functionally can't talk about because there's contracts in place and so you have to be aware of like, this is going into a public space and so there's stuff I can't talk about, and then also, like, you know, knowing that there's a performative aspect to it.  So yeah, there is definitely, there is definitely performance there and also like, writing this book really helped me understand that in a more full way and also be okay with it.  Like, it's not--just because something is performative doesn't mean that it's false and yeah, and so the--but also like, you need stuff besides that in your life.  You need times when you can feel like, I'm gonna, like, right now, I'm going to talk in a way that like, I don't really know where I'm going with this and it's gonna be like, pretty open and I need it to be like, my wife or someone else who I, you know, trust to listen to me talk about it, and I think a lot of times, creators don't have that because they can't find the value in it when people are telling them there's so much value in the other stuff that they're doing, and I think that can go beyond just creators.  I think that goes for like, you know, heart surgeons and business professionals and even, you know, like, like, moms who are, who like, the work that they do is so, so valuable that they feel like taking care of themselves--taking care of themself or like, like, nurturing real life relationships isn't valuable because it like, pales in comparison to the sort of societal appreciation for the other thing that they do.  

K: Yeah.  You should write a book, man.  

 (12:00) to (14:00)

H: I was sort of like, thinking about Walt as I said that.  I was like, what a messed up dude who accomplished amazing things, so I wanted to try and frame it in a way that was relevant to the podcast.

K: No, I totally get that.  The--relevant to the podcast is a term that we shy away, because there's nothing really--

H: Yeah.

K: Like, the very, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna keep plugging the stupidness of the channel in and of itself is just like, there's nothing relevant.

H: It's not stupid!  It's so good!  I love it so much!

K: Oh, well, thank you.

H: It's so important to me!  So like, I--yeah.  Yeah, it's so good.

K: And theme park history can be fun, right?  

H: I think, like, here's what I've come to realize is that like, you look deep enough into anything and you like, find interesting stuff there.  Literally, at a wedding this weekend, I was looking at my shoe and I was thinking, God, that is complicated!  Just like, it's a complicated shoe.  People worked hard on that, and that's nothing compared to the work that goes into like, the immersive experiential design of a theme park.  

K: That's interesting that you mention that, like, 'cause I had a very similar experience but not in like, an intelligent way.  I was researching for this Australian theme park right now and they're like, we open in like November and we close in May and I'm like, why would you do that?!  It's so dumb, like, you're missing the summer months, and then I--yeah.  You already get it, but it took me to like, I had to go to YouTube and watch a children's video from Australia singing the months to me, and I was like, I should start a vlogbrothers type channel where I explore elementary topics to intelligent people but act like they're like, mindblowing to me.  Like, did you know in Australia, the seasons are backwards?!  It's crazy!  

H: I mean, it is kind of crazy.  It's also crazy that it's crazy.

 (14:00) to (16:00)

Like, it's weird that we--that it's so surprising, but because like, we live in a global world, right?  And but like, actually, it turns out most people live in the Northern hemisphere.  Like, there's just like, most of the land is in the Northern hemisphere.  That's just like, a, like an accident, and then uh, and then you also have like the reality that like, we mostly pay attention to people who are like us and most of the people who speak English live in the Northern hemisphere unless they're Australians and they just happen to all be down there speaking English.

K: Oh, hm.  Yeah, probably shouldn't make that vlogbrothers channel.  Thats a--that's a sad answer to that, to my fascination.  

H: Well, I mean, John has a podcast called The Anthropocene Reviewed where he like, goes deep on really simple stuff.  Like, he did like, 40, like 15 minutes on Diet Dr. Pepper.  

K: Well, there's nothing diet about it.  So there's a lot to be, you know, there's a lot there.  

H: Yeah, that's right.

K: That's our slogan.  Or what about Dr. Pepper 10: Not for women.  Remember that?

H: Not--that's right.  

K: That--what a wonderful marketing scheme.

H: There are some conversations to be had there.  

K: But not on this podcast.  We're gonna stick to on-topic irrelevancy.  Um, the uh--so where were we going with this?  Um, that we're gonna talk about theme parks today, because I'm sure you've talked about so many topics, but I hope that you don't get to talk about this exact one that often, so hopefully this will be fresh stuff, and so--

H: Well, can I ask you--can I ask you a question first?  Can I like, kick it off?

K: Oh, yeah, no, this is your conv--this is your theme park life.  This isn't mine.

H: I'm gonna kick it off.

K: Okay.

H: I wanna know what you think a theme park based on my book would look like?

K: Oh my--dang it!  I was gonna ask this exact same question.

 (16:00) to (18:00)

Oh, dude!

H: I beat you!

K: That's so not fair.  Dude, I've been, for weeks, well, however long we've set this up for, for that long I've been thinking, ever since you said yes, I was like, oh my gosh.  The best question would be what would a theme park ride about his book be?  I'm gonna ask that.  70--like, the moment the conversation dips a little bit, the moment there's that awkward pause, I'm gonna say that and I'm gonna blow his mind and then--great job!  So now you're pointing this to me.  Okay, so let's get into it.

H: Yeah.  You're the expert.

K: Sure.  The--well, the--sure.  Um, there's a few different types of rides.  So we should--this should be a collaborative effort because I also had this idea just because you said it first doesn't mean anything to me.

H: Okay. Okay.

K: This is so disappointing.

H: I agree.  I agree.  That makes sense.

K: So there are a few--I'm--there was an old thing in EPCOT Innoventions and at Disney Quest, where it was called Cyber Space Mountain, and then later Sum of All Thrills with 'S-U-M'--no wait, Sum of All Thrills, yeah.  

H: Yep, yep, yep.

K: And so you got to build your own roller coaster and you got to like, choose different tracks, so we'll do that but with different ride types and I'll take you through it, so you'll be leading this but I'll be putting it in the box.

H: Okay.

K: Wonderful.  Okay, so there are a few different types of theme park rides, as I'm sure you know.  There is the classic roller coaster.  There's the flat ride, which is like, you know, those ones you pass by and that you like, assume people are going on but no one ever is.  It's like the Octopus and--they just spin and stuff, you know?

H: Yeah.

K: Who rides those?  And then there's--

H: Kids.  Kids do!

K: Kids, really?  I don't know.

H: I don't know.  In the Dumbos?  They're in the Dumbos.

K: Well, Magic Kingdom alone has three different spinny rides.  There's Astro Orbiter, there is Dumbo the Flying Elephant, and then there's Aladdin's Magic Carpet Ride.  They're the same ride.  

 (18:00) to (20:00)

K: So I'm gonna eliminate that option.

H: Yeah, just spinning children is the goal of those rides.  Like, the lines are never long, you put your child in and it spins the child and then like, you go and get a churro.  It's great.

K: Oh, yes.  I want a churro now.  Yeah, no, but the, yeah, so, that's not an option.

H: Okay.

K: Well that will actually be the easiest option, 'cause you could just like, have 'em be on like, flying Carls or the hands. 

H: Yeah.

K: The flying hands.

H: Sure, flying hands, yeah.  I like it.  

K: Okay, every creative thing I'm gonna throw out there, you're gonna be like, yep.  I know.  Mhmm.  You've already clearly thought about this.  And so, then there's the dark ride, which is a little more story based attraction, and you can also do a hybrid.  I don't know if you've been to Universal Studios recently.  

H: Uh, no, not for like, ten, like, twenty years?  I think?  

K: Amazing.  Um, so a hybrid would be like, a roller coaster that like, stops and then is like, story story story and then it speeds away and then it stops, story story story.

H: Ohh, wow, that sounds time consuming.  

K: It's really not great.

H: Sounds like there's more than one--more than one train on the track at a time, is what it sounds like.  I mean, this is like Harry Potter Forbidden Journey kind of like that?  There's like--they like, swing you a little bit.

K: Yeah, you--

H: There's not like a roller coaster element to it.

K: Have you been on the Forbidden Journey?

H: Yeah.

K: Okay, well then, you've been with--that's Universal Studios.

H: I only went to the Wizarding World.

K: Oh, okay, well, that's fair.  That's all you need to do.  

H: Yeah.

K: Was it in Hollywood or was it in Universal?

H: In Florida.  

K: In Florida.

H: Um, yeah, so I--I--we--I went to a Harry Potter convention and they, like, we had like, 3 or 4 hours in the park when it was just convention go-ers, so they like, rented out the thing and it was amazing and I had way too much Butterbeer and my stomach hurt very bad and then I went on that ride and I felt very nauseous.  

K: Oh, isn't it great?

H: I mean!  I can't handle those kinda rides!  I can't even handle like, Star Tours, I get sick.  

 (20:00) to (22:00)

K: Okay.  Both of those are fair examples of rides that make you sick.

H: It's a disaster.  Yeah.  Okay.  Just to be--okay, good.  

K: You're not--you don't sound--you don't sound uneducated by saying Star Tours makes you sick, Harry Potter Forbidden Journey, those are normal sick things.

H: Okay.  Okay.  Okay.  Okay.

K: My--everyone makes fun of me 'cause I'm afraid of Space Mountain, even as an adult person.

H: What do you mean by 'afraid'?

K: Like, I'm scared.  

H: Like, you--you've done it though, right?  'Cause I feel like if you've done Space Mountain, you're not scared of it anymore, 'cause you did it.

K: I've done it.

H: It's the least scary roller coaster.

K: No, it's not.  No, it's not, because it's all in the dark but you know, if you've ever seen a ride-through, when the lights are on, that those metal beams are so close to your hands and I'm a big guy and I like, I raise my--

H: Look, if enough people have gone through Space Mountain and everybody's come out with their fingers intact--

K: Minus three.  

H: You're safe.  Except for those three.

K: The actually funny story, and I talk about this in my book that's not on Audible, so go ahead and just get An Absolutely Remarkable Thing instead of mine, no big deal, in that the--in Disneyland, a kid tragically fell off Space Mountain and there was this huge court case and the jurors were taken to Disneyland for the day and they said that it was not guilty, so that--is that a fair--is it?

H: Uhhhh, here's the situation: we're gonna take you--show you a great time.  Now, do you really wanna sue us?  We're so great.  Here's a butterbeer.  

K: Uh-huh, we're Disney, what are we gonna do?

H: Wrong thing.

K: Here's some notes.  The (?~21:53), in case you're wondering, is the--

H: Sorry, thanks.  

K: Yes, is the Disney like, oh my gosh, we have to come up with something to match Butterbeer equivalent.  

 (22:00) to (24:00)

H: Of course.

K: Which is, well, what do they got, butterscotch?  Well, just throw some apple cider in there!

H: Oh, God.  

K: Yeah.

H: Never have two butterbeers.  This is my one piece of useful theme park knowledge.  Never have two butterbeers.  One is plenty and also pumpkin juice mixed with vodka is amazing.  

K: Lessons from Hank.

H: Lessons from Hank.  Lessons from the one time I went to the Wizarding World at--in the middle of the night.

K: Oh, did they take you, like, after-hours?

H: Yeah.  Yeah.  It was awesome.

K: So you didn't have to wait for like, two hours?

H: Right, yeah.  Um, what were we talking about?   Oh, so you were trying to get me--a long, long time ago, inside of this podcast, you were trying to get me to get, to say which ride I'm looking to kind of have?  I mean, I want a dark ride.  Like, I feel like those are the--the like, classic, most interesting like, well, like, most well-loved things.

K: Of course.

H: In theme parks.  Like, if that was an option, that is the option I would take.  

K: I'm glad you didn't choose screen ride, although I didn't give you that option so I didn't expect you to.

H: Yeah, well, also, because thye make me puke.

K: Oh my gosh.  They're so bad.  They're just like, I mean--

H: Yeah.

K: I don't know if you've, I mean, you know like those old, what are those prank movies, Jackass?  Like, when they used to like, go up to people and like shake a porta-potty?  I feel like one executive at Universal Studios was watching that and he was just like, yes.  That is what we're gonna do forever and never anything else.  So you landed  on dark ride, great.  So, now we've gotta (?~23:41) what kind of dark ride.  So, you can have a water-based--I don't know why the hell that would fit into your story!  

H: Yeah, is it like, like Splash Mountain, that kinda idea?

K: Yeah, Splash Mountain, It's a Small World--

H: Yeah, yeah.

K: You know, Pirates of the Caribbean.

H: Right, right, sure, yeah.

K: Those are nice, 'cause it's a little leisurely--or you can have a, you can have the classic, classic.

H: Yeah, I'm thinking like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride!  

 (24:00) to (26:00)

K: Okay.

H: Like, April May's Bizarre Journey, like, her bizarre adventure.  

K: That's--you just, everyone that's listening to this podcast right now, just like, they are rock hard.  Like, (?~24:22).  They are so happy.

H: So I grew up in Orlando, Florida and my mom actually, for a while, was doing work with the park and so we had, like, free passes and so we could, you know, it was still like a haul, it was still like a 35, 45 minute drive, but we--we--I--there was a period in my life when  I went to Disney a whole lot and then a second one when my friends all started working there, when I went to Disney a whole lot, so like, when I was like, 8-12 and then when I was like 16-17, I went a bunch, to the Magic Kingdom, and yeah, and so I've been on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, uhhhh, I don't know, probably 65 times?  

K: Well, that'll be the last time, because they--it's removed, but--

H: What?!  

K: Yeah, they took it out.

H: What??  Oh my God, no!  Why did you have to tell me this fact?  

K: Do you feel--do you feel--that's the pull of the channel.  It's--you just take, you take what you know and then you just say it's gone and everyone and--yeah.  

H: Okay, well, you know.

K: Doesn't that sting a little bit that you just told me a story--

H: It always seemed very--yeah.  Yeah, a little bit.

K: And then--

H: But it did always seem very strange to me, because I only knew the story of Mr. Toad from the ride.  I had no connection with this story, which I assume was like, something, a children's book or some thing.

K: It's an old Disney movie, yeah.

H: It's a Dis--okay, yeah, I've never seen the movie.

K: No one has, it's fine.

H: It's weird to like, know that people, like, have, like, the majority of experiences of this story is the theme park experience of the story, which is a very strange way to tell a story and very new.

 (26:00) to (28:00)

K: Right.  

H: Yeah.

K: Well, what do you think Pandora's gonna be in like, ten years?

H: Are you...are you talking--oh, sorry!  I thought you were talking about the music streaming service for a second.  

K: You know what, screw the theme parks, man.  Let's talk about jewelry.  How are you--

H: Oh, God, yeah.  

K: Pandora in the world of Avatar.

H: Right.  Yes.  Well, I assume that James Cameron will continue making Avatar movies and it will get more and more popular as time goes on and 60, 70 years from now, every theme park will be Pandora themed.  

K: I'm sure that's the case.  I'm sure no one will--I'm sure this next movie will not be an absolute flop and that--I actually thought that James Cameron was stuck at the bottom of the ocean for the past ten years.  I had no idea he was working on this film.  

H: Well, he does, he does spend a fair amount of time there.

K: I thought he was still--

H: I once saw James Cameron speak at a Mars conference.

K: About Mars or--?

H: Yeah.  Yeah, he was talking about exploration and yep, he was very excited.

K: Is that like Steven Segall teaching an acting class?  I mean, teaching a fighting class?

H: Martial arts.

K: Martial arts.  

H: Hey, I think if you're at a Mars convention, you take what you can get, and James Cameron's a good get.

K: Well, okay, that's fair, I mean, he is a really cool guy.

H: So we're talking--so I want to like, so now that they've removed--

K: I want a Mr. Toad.

H: Mr. Toad, so, so, so can I just move into that space?  Like, is that available now?  What have they done there?

K: So, we have an old, rickety four person, okay, well, if we move into that space, we want to do something more recent, I'm gonna give you the gift of theme parks.  I'm going to tell you about something you probably don't know of, because it's not in the states yet.  It's called a trackless dark ride and it is this vehicle that you get in that operates through a computer, and so the wheels can turn 360 degrees, and what--and there are a few of these in the United States, but--

 (28:00) to (30:00)

H: Ooh, I like it.  This makes sense.

K: What this does, yeah, so what this does is you have all these scenes and there's just floor.  There's no track, and it's like darting in and out.

H: Right, mhmm.

K: So.

H: Yes.

K: That's on the table.

H: Yeah.  I mean, like, yes, it would be, I feel like that there are a number of exciting, weird things that happen to April that would be good jumpscares or good, you know, like, good drama, good like fear moments, excitement moments and uh, and yeah, I also like, I assume that the trackless ones can like, vary their speed a lot more--

K: Oh yeah.

H: --efficiently and effectively than track-based dark rides.  

K: Oh yeah, they're great at that.

H: So, that's what they do.  And they go backwards.  Oh, they can go backwards!

K: Mhmm, yep.

H: Oh man.  This is genius.  Disney's doing this, right?  In other countries, in other places?

K: Yes, Disney's doing it.  In Epcot.

H: I'd be really like, legitimately angry at Disney if somebody did this first that wasn't them.  

K: No, no.

H: I'd be like, that's--this is--you are showing--I'm gonna sell all my Disney stock now.  Like, the moment that somebody's innovating faster than Disney in the theme park space, I'm just out.

K: The moment that happens, (?~29:18) them.

H: Yeah, Butterbeer notwithstanding, which apparently was an important, important loss for them.

K: It was.  The (?~29:26) was just--it's too close.  That's, yeah, so the trackless dark ride.

H: The trackless dark ride.  

K: Yeah, so you've got the trackless dark ride and now we've gotta kind of make the layout and scenes.  I had an idea while you were talking and I might be overstepping here, so stop me if this is a terrible idea, but one of the main plot points, or, I guess turning points in the plot is when one of the--the New York Carl, right?  His hand shoots out from his body and like, scampers away.  Did I use--did I make up the word 'scampers'?  'Skitters'?  

 (30:00) to (32:00)

Skitters?  Whatever.

H: 'Scamper' is a word.

K: Okay, great.  Did I use it correctly?

H: Yeah.  You did it, 100%, A+, five stars, my friend.

K: Amazing.  I read a book this week, everybody.  I'm also afraid of Space Mountain and I'm bad at podcasts.  So, the hand scampers away, well, what we could do is, so there's this thing called Pepper's Ghost Effect.  You know about this, right?

H: Pembrose Ghost Effect?

K: Pepper's Ghost Effect.  I'm gonna stop you right there.  Pepper's.  

H: No, I still don't know.

K: Pepper's Ghost, even in the Hollywood Mansion, you know how the ghosts look like ghosts?  

H: Yeah.

K: They're not ghosts.  

H: I agree with you there.

K: What it is, it's a angled piece of glass in a room that you can't see below it.

H: Okay, gotcha.

K: Is a lit object.  Now they can do these with projectors, so they shine a projector on a slanted piece of glass and it looks like a hologram, or if you shine it bright enough, it just looks like it exists in the world.  

H: Yeah, like Tupac.

K: Yes, exactly like Tupac.  I should have started with Tupac.  Yes, Tupac and Michael Jackson.  I can't wait for the one person who's a conspiracy theorist to be like, that was not a hologram.  That was Tupac.  He came back for that one performance.  

H: I feel like if you can't wait for that person, you're probably going to be waiting for a while if it hasn't happened yet.  That was a while ago.

K: He's still on it, this one person.  Still on that Tupac concert that never happened.  Um, or is now happening.  Oh, whatever.

H: I don't know.

K: I don't know either.  The point being is that what would happen is so you've got that scene where the hand jumps off, right?  So we could build the Carl animatronic--well, I guess it doesn't move, so that would be a waste of money.

H: Agree.  

K: So yes, so you build him with one hand and then you Pepper's Ghost the other hand on to him and then the hand like, on the projector, like, jumps away and then like, goes across the floor.  

H: I mean, I feel like you just Pepper's Ghost the whole thing, right?  

K: No, don't do that, that's Universal Studios, man.

H: You gotta have--you gotta have practical effects!  

K: That--yes, I know, okay, look.  That argument has been beated to death in the Star Wars fandom but I'm gonna tell you--

H: Yeah, it sure has.

K: It's still relevant in the theme park fandom, because why would you go to a theme park--

H: I feel ya.  You're right.  You're right.  You're right.  I'm there.  

K: There you go.

H: Why would I sit in a jiggly chair to watch a movie just so I can feel like I need to take my shoe off and puke in it?  

 (32:00) to (34:00)

K: Yeah, exactly, or the reason you go to a theme park is so you can sit in another chair with a giant arm that throws you from scene to scene like in Iron Man, I'm just flinging you across as your Butterbeer goes all over.  Do you like that scene?  Do you not like that scene?  

H: I love--no, I love it.  I love it.  I mean, my question is, are we gonna go through the whole movie, because people might be like, I don't know if I wanna listen to a podcast if I might read the book.  I said movie.  I meant book. 

K: Oh, so you're not telling us something.  No, I'm just kidding.  Um, did you get a movie deal?  Is it--

H: I did not.  I do not have a movie deal.  

K: Yet.  Do you have to add yet?

H: (noises) I hate them.  I hate movies.

K: You hate movies?

H: I hate all movies!  Every movie is bad.  

K: You hate the medium of film.

H: I'm gonna, you know, I don't like to make any sweeping declarations generally but I think the entire motion picture industry is terr--no.  

K: Well, you're not wrong there.  Like--

H: I do have--I've watched a lot of movies get made from books, particularly my brother.  I've watched my brother go through this process and it looks really hard.  It just looks hard and frustrating and um, and sometimes it works out really well and sometimes it doesn't and uh, so I'm just, I'm just nervous about it, which is why I haven't sold the movie rights yet.

K: Sure.  Totally.  I totally understand that, but just sell 'em and hope they never make it.  That's the goal.  You sell the rights and then you just, you pray that they never make the movie.

H: Yeah.

 (34:00) to (36:00)

K: You're like, you just--they just pay you money.

H: Yeah, I get paid!  Well, see here's the thing that I didn't know.  Do you wanna know--so you know a lot about theme parks.  I've watched movies get made from books.  You don't make very much money selling the movie rights.  Like, you can--like, you make good money, don't get me wrong, but most of the--like, the vast majority of the money you make is the books you sell after the movie comes out.

K: Sure.

H: So, everybody knows this.

K: So you replace the cover with the actors.

H: Yeah, yep, you do movie tie-ins and then suddenly people are like, ahh, Ansel Elgort, he's cute.  

K: I prefer Nate Wolff.

H: I'll buy that book.  I think it's Nat, but good try.

K: I try, man.  Dude, you know how many Wikipedia articles I read before this?

H: I mean, that was like a B, that was like a B+.  

K: That was a good (?~34:59) try, go ahead. 

H: Yeah, but yeah, so it is, yeah.  It's much more--and this is for even movies that don't do well, so generally you, like, the thing that people are all betting on is like, you're kind of selling the rights fairly inexpensively with the hope that the movie gets made and then you sell a lot of books, 'cause--and you never get money, like, the other thing is like, if the movie does well, authors don't ever get money from the movie doing well except from selling their book, so you don't get like, if the movie does better or worse, you don't get like a portion of ticket sales or anything as an author.

K: Sure.  Well, to be fair--

H: Which I always assumed you would.  

K: Right.

H: 'Cause like, you wrote the frickin story!  But no.  

K: Well, yeah, even the--

H: And like, who knows, it's not like the guy who wrote Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, the movie, gets a portion of Disney ticket sales, especially now that that ride doesn't exist.

K: And also the movie probably flopped.  No one saw it.

H: Why did they make this ride that was so well loved?  

 (36:00) to (38:00)

K: And did--it was Walt.  It was in 1955.  He just--he waved a cigar at something and it was there.  

H: Ugh.

K: It was his magic wand.

H: Well.

K: Rest his soul.

H: Yeah, I mean, that's when you're, you know, when you're as powerful and scary as Walt Disney was.

K: Hey, hey, hey.

H: That's all that it takes.

K: He was more powerful than he was scary, but he was more scary 'cause he was powerful.  We're not gonna get into it.

H: Probably best.

K: I just love the different, different peoples' outlook on Walt is so interesting to me because either way, to me, is a little creepy.  Like the people that are way, like, Walt with no redeeming qualities, I'm like, whoa, and then the people that are like, nothin--he did no wrong, Uncle Walt, I was like, whoa.  I mean, like, you, you, like, watched Song in the South, right?  Like, he was alive for that.  He was on set and stuff.  

H: I mean, like, it--you walk into this beautiful downtown land that is so constructed to make you feel so connected to your roots as an American and just like experiencing this, this--like, this yeah, this crafted experience that you can get nowhere else and then you reach the end of it and there's a giant castle and what sits before the giant castle is just a statue of a man.  A human man.  And I'm like, this is a little weird, right?  And he's got his little--got his friend there, and oh, it's just like, what am I--what do I--what am I believing in right now?  Like, every time I go to World of Color, I'm like, this is a church service!  Like, this feels like church.  I like, I'm not saying I don't like it, but like, I also don't think that it's like, you know, like--

K: Healthy, all the time.

H: --a super, like, exemplary of like, reality.

K: Oh my gosh.  I've never thought about it that way.

H: Sorry.  

K: What a fresh pers--I feel like we just went to Disneyworld together and you ruined it for me.

 (38:00) to (40:00)


H: Well, and also like, I walk up to that statue and I like, I get a little teary.  Like, it's called "Best Friends", right?  Am I making that up?  

K: Uh--

H: I think it's got a plaque on it.

K: It's called "Partners", I think.

H: "Partners", that's what it's called!

K: Or "Found"--it's called "Partners" or "Founders", yeah.

H: Something like that, yeah, yeah, yeah, and like, and I like, and I like, I get--

K: "It's called "Best Friends""


K: That would be so weird.  

H: You got it!

K: Hashtag besties.  

H: Yeah.  BFF hashtag forever.  Best friends forever, forever.  And yeah, but like, I like, I get emotional and I'm like, this is achieving its goal.  

K: You--I mean--

H: Well done, imagineers.

K: And then you get to Liberty Square and that's even more problematic.  We're not gonna go there today.

H: Yeah.  Yeah.

K: Where you go to--

H: And then on the way out of the park, it's just like, I have never been this close to so many people in my whole life.  

K: Yes.

H: I'm touching eight people right now.  I might as well be at a Rancid concert.

K: Oh.  I've not heard that band referenced casually in, I don't even know how many years.

H: A solid 15 years?

K: Yeah.

H: Sorry.  I'm stuck.  I'm stuck in the 90s.

K: Might as well be a Sugar Ray concert.

H: Eh!  Hey.  Don't take--don't put words in my mouth.  I will not accept that substitute.  

K: Disclaimer at the beginning of this podcast.  There's no intention to make anyone believe that Hank Green listens to or has ever listened to the band Sugar Ray.  

H: See, also there should be a warning.  This podcast contains references to Sugar Ray.

K: To Sugar Ray!  What were we talking about?  

H: We were talking about, I think we were talking about my dark ride, but then--

K: No, I know, I think we--I think you said I want--that's not--oh, the movie deal!  I had something else on the movie deal.  

H: Oh, yeah, we can talk about that.  Yeah.  

 (40:00) to (42:00)

K: Well, I was also mentioning, you know, sometimes theme park rides are made into movies, so there's a--

H: Yes!  Yep.

K: I mean, Pirates of the Caribbean, um, you know, Country Bears, the classic with Christopher Walken.  

H: Don't know about that.  

K: Haunted Mansion with Eddie Murphy.

H: Yep.  I know about that.

K: Yeah.  Yeah, all those.  But what I was gonna mention, and this has nothing to do with theme parks, but it was just, it was like, a thought that crossed my mind and now it's back, is that uh, you, like, yeah, when you make a movie into a book, because like, we deal with, this kind of relates, because we deal with different mediums and some stories work really well as you know, a movie.  Some stories work really well as a novel.  Some even work better as a theme park ride, such as like Journey into Imagination or Horizons as another level of inspiration and wholesomeness.  Um, I'm with a very literate person right now and it's--everything I say, I'm like, is that even a word?  

H: You've got it.

K: Great.  And so, but have you ever like, seen an instance where, and I'm not, and I know of a few, where a book is made into a movie, 'cause the fear is, "oh my gosh, they're gonna change the story for the medium and it's just gonna make it worse" and that's like, the case 99% of the time, but every once in a while, there's this wonderful moment where a very stubborn author allows their book to be made into a movie and the movie is better than the book.  

H: Um, I mean, Die Hard.  

K: I didn't even know Die Hard was a book.  

H: Die Hard was a book.

K: Really?

H: I haven't read Die Hard, the book, and it wasn't even called Die Hard.  What's Die Hard, Die Hard book?  I'm gonna look it up because I think it's funny.  

K: Or like, I don't know, The Censorship of Roger Rabbit?  That was a book.  I'm sure the movie's better.

H: Ohhh, I didn't know that.

K: Yeah.

H: It's called Nothing Lasts Forever, is the book that Die Hard was based on.

K: Is Fabio on the cover?

H: Um, no.  I couldn't--it is just a--it's just words.  I think that the book only, really only has much of a following now because it got turned into Die Hard, but my deep guess is that, well, frankly, there's no way the book could be better, because Die Hard is perfect.

 (42:00) to (44:00)

K: Okay, and that's your, that's the guess?

H: Yeah.  

K: Okay.

H: I mean, it's--that's--it's mostly certainty, but I'll allow a little bit of uncertainty into it.

K: Well, the best example I can think of, but I mentioned this last podcast, so if you listened to--the Defunctland podcast is now just why The Prestige is better as a movie than as a book.  Have you seen The Prestige?  

H: I have seen The Prestige.

K: Okay, so you know the twist at the end, spoiler alert if you listen to--

H: I hate it so much.

K: You hate the twist?!

H: Ahh, it's so bad.  I mean, it's great, it's just like, it upsets me very much.

K: 'Cause you didn't catch on or because it's just--

H: It's just upsetting.

K: Oh, it's upsetting 'cause it's sad.

H: No, it's like physically upsetting, yeah.  

K: Oh, because it's, by its own design.

H: It's like, yeah.  Yes.

K: Oh, okay.  So spoiler alert, if you haven't listened to the last podcast where I gave you a spoiler alert and now dropping everything is that The Prestige, it ends and then you know, the same character, anyway, so there's a twist at the end, and that twist in the book apparently, and I probably should look this up again just to make sure, it happens halfway through the book and so Christopher Nolan like, moved everything around and made the twist really big at the end and everybody loved the book--the movie way better than the book and the author was mad.

H: Yeah.  

K: Also, Mary Poppins.  If you've seen Saving Mr. Banks, starring your favorite person, Walt Disney.

H: Saving Mr. Banks?  

K: Yes.  Have you seen Saving Mr. Banks?

H: No, I don't think so.

K: With Tom Hanks as Walt Disney?

H: I haven't.  No, I haven't seen this.  

K: You've--did you know about this?  

H: I didn't!

K: This is like a huge movie!  Like, a few years ago. 

H: Yeah, it was recent.  I'm looking at the trailer right now.  

K: You're just like, typing away, like we're getting--

H: Everybody stop!  Stop the podcast!  I have to watch a movie trailer.  

K: Let's, here, can we get a third microphone for this movie trailer in here?  

 (44:00) to (46:00)

Anyways, so that's another one where, Mary Poppins, I should have just said Mary Poppins but like, people widely agree, for the most part that Mary Poppins is a better movie than it was a book, but that was a side conversation.  Back to your dark ride.  How do you want--does the dark ride give away the book?  Does it give away the ending?

H: Umm, yeah.  I think it does.

K: Okay.  So do we--

H: So in my hypothetical world in which this ride exists, it's--it is so like, my book has been so wildly successful that everyone knows how it ends already.

K: Okay.  

H: Is that allowed?

K: Wouldn't that be nice?

H: Is that--

K: Yeah, yeah, that's--

H: 'Cause the listeners of the Defunctland podcast became massive evangelists for the concept of my book.

K: I have a very mobile fanbase.  They will do things, as you know.  

H: For you.  

K: Yeah, and I feel bad 'cause every time I--sometimes I forget like, I just, I really am just this like, very happy-go-lucky internet user and so I like, you had the thing where you're like, I'm doing something for a Disney video and I'm like, oh my gosh!  And then I threw everything off my table.  I was actually at Disneyland so this is a joke.

H: So it was somebody else's table.

K: It was, yeah, yeah, I was--I saw a table and I just flipped it over and just spread across it and was like, everyone, stop, Hank is doing a video on Disney, and then I was like, (?~45:34) and then I made like, three jokes and people were like, Tweeting at you and then after a while I felt bad, I was like, damn it, and then you messaged me at like 4 in the morning like, I already figured it out and then I was like, okay, and then I helped you with a few things.

H: God.

K: Yeah, and then we still all collectively got it wrong, which--

H: YUP.  Yup, but thank you for preventing me from getting it even more wrong.

K: Well, great, yeah.  I got you a few more years earlier, but yeah, that was--I loved that video though, even though, with the correction, which is weird 'cause I've seen that picture of Progressland, which is when it--like, first showed up.

H: Right, yeah.

K: Probably like a billion times.

H: Right.

 (46:00) to (48:00)

K: But whoever thinks about Walt Disney's signature?  But as you uncovered in that video, Walt Disney like, just practiced his signature.

H: Yeah, so much.  Like, constantly.  He changed it all the time, and he was kind of obsessed with it, which makes, I don't know, kind of some sense.  

K: Man, I wanna--okay, we're gonna stop the podcast, no, not stop it, but like, we're gonna stop the conversation.  I wanna hear, I wanna just talk about Walt Disney with you.  

H: Okay.

K: You walked into this one, man.  You mentioned it like three times.

H: I did.  I did.  I did.  I keep--well, and also, like I feel like I'm walking into like the most controversial part of--maybe not.  Maybe not now with like, Anaheim and like, the city and the workers and like, trying to figure out how to have a good experience for all involved, but like--

K: No, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure--

H: One of, certainly, the most controversial parts of loving Disney.

K: Well, sure.  I think the whole happy and indentured servant sing a song about how he's very happy zippa-dee-doo-dah was probably a little bit worse than the minimum wage, but the minimum wage is important.

H: Uhh, well, except that's now.  

K: Sure.

H: That that's real people now.  

K: Sure.

H: So we gotta deal with, like, yeah, I mean, like lots of bad stuff's happened in like, the history of the history, but like, there's the things that are happening now (?~47:28)

K: And that's the nice thing about this podcast is I'd say more, I'm not that actually popular among the Disneys, the Disney fanbases, if you can believe it, despite the logo being a direct rip-off of my show, is that they, it's because I'm very critical.  Most of my videos are criticizing them and like, showing, wow, they really messed up here, or like, this is really weird and then also, you know, praising the creative people that are grinned and beared it and like, made something amazing while terrible people were doing weird things with money, so yeah, go for it.  Everyone here's pretty on board, I think.  

 (48:00) to (50:00)

H: I mean, go for my like, personal take on Walt?  

K: It's your show, man.  I mean, it's Hank Green on Walt, or whatever you want to talk about.

H: I think that--I think, you know, it was an era in which, so there was like a period of American business history where like, you know, Standard Oil had shown that if you like, like, that there are huge advantages to getting very big and kind of doing that at all costs, and then there was sort of a period after that with a lot of people who like, looked to that example as like, this is what business is going to be and this is, it kind of, I mean, it didn't kind of, it became what American business was, and that there was like that, that, you know, winning the thing, like, being the biggest was good for everyone, was like, it meant that you were creating the best product and it meant that you were um, and it meant that you were going to be able to control the market and create what, in business, you call a moat.  So like a barrier between your business and the world that prevents competition from getting over that moat and encroaching into your market share, so, and I think that like, Disney was the, so like, and you can find people who did this in industries, like, all over the spectrum, but I think that Disney was the person who did it in entertainment and I, but at the same time, Disney had to like, have this balance where, because he was making childrens' content, specific--like, that was the main bulk of it, he knew that it shouldn't be like General Electric.  It shouldn't be like, you know, General Motors or like, it wasn't--it shouldn't be based on like, the, like, the word 'General' was like, like, that was such an era in American business where like, that's what we wanted: we wanted things that were like, general.  

 (50:00) to (52:00)

They did it all, whereas Disney knew that he was coming into this to be like, like, I have to be trusted and I have to be appreciated and I have, and, and so in many ways, like, this brand is going to be based on me as a person and so he had to be extremely controlling of who, like, how he was perceived, and that's, now it's impossible to do.  It was much easier to do in that era and because like, you know, you could just only talk to reporters who are going to say nice things about you.  You could only, like, only let people say thing--say nice things about you, blacklist people who are going to say bad things about you and be pretty controlling of that, because ultimately, like, that's what the business was based on, and there's part of me is like, that's how it had be done for a company that was gonna make childrens' content, because it had to be, like, there had to be a way to make, to like, build that trust and like, you know, in doing something that had never been done before, but part of me is like, boy, that seems so like, based on ego, that he wanted to build this big, beautiful thing and like, it was gonna be about, like, the, like really huge ideas, like imagination and happiness and, and like, he wanted his name to be the thing that represented that, and I think like, ultimately, you're right that like, there, like, every--people who say that he's all bad and people who say that he's all good, like, those are nonsense arguments, but like, I think that he had to be really controlling of his, his uh, you know, his image, how he was perceived and that was, and like, he understood how important that was, and that's why, when I say like, that it makes a lot of sense that he would practice his signature and change his signature all the time, because like, he was very focused on how he was perceived and, and, you know, I'm--I know as a person who changed my signature at a certain point in my life, after high school, I was like, I have an ugly signature, it's terrible, I want a pretty one, that that is part of like, me imagining how I'm perceived by the world, and I know as a creator that like, you know, one of the things you do is you make your content.

 (52:00) to (54:00)

You like, write your book, you work very hard on that, and like, that is an art that you have made and then you're also building the idea of yourself in peoples' minds and that is part of the craft and I'm not, and I, again, like I said this earlier in the podcast, that doesn't mean it's false, but like, it does, you know, I think that it provides advantages to people who are good at that and it is a disadvantage to people who like, are dis--are like, uninterested in that part of the work in a way that like, maybe 20 years ago, it didn't matter so much whether like, an author was good at cultivating a social media following.

 (54:00) to (56:00)

Obviously it wasn't important 20 years ago, but like--

K: Yeah, I'd agree.

H: But any of that, like, like, you know, the author photo, the bio, like, all those like, little things that we were using to try and like, get people a little connected with an author, like are so miniscule compared to the tools that we have now.

K: Yeah, and that's part of what has made the--your book, which is kind of about this, so relevant but at the same time, ironically, it's also kind of what makes it so successful and why so many people are reading it, right?  Because you had built this, like, coincidentally, you had been building this kind of brand and then you wrote a book about that and then that paid off.  It's wow, it's like a triangle of--it's all connected.

H: Right.  I mean, it's not that coincidental, because like, ultimately, I thought I was going to write a story about like, you know, is this a space alien or is this a, like, some kind of other mystery, like what is this mystery and how do we explain it, like what's going on, there's something very strange happening in the world.  I thought that's what the story was going to be about, but then I realized that like, I had a lot of stuff to work through re: me being a public person and like, having some level of notoriety, though certainly not anything like traditionally famous people and then, and then also like, having that experience and a lot of like, sort of deep understanding of that, that would allow me to talk about it in a way that was realistic but also, you know, accessible, and also like, I feel like I couldn't talk about that stuff as a person.  I could, like, coming out and being like, here's what's hard about being famous!  Like, that's not relatable content.

K: Sure.

H: But coming at it through a fictional lens, you can, weirdly, you know, be more empathetic to a fictional character than I feel like we often are with real people.

K: Yeah, no, I--that came through and we're on two separate tracks right now and I'm trying to figure out which train to jump on.  This is my choice.

H: I'm just trying to turn--I was trying to turn the train away from--you can't turn a train.  It's one of those new dark rides.

K: Yes, no, it's one of those new dark rides where you can turn the train.

H: Where it's got--

K: You're at the point where--I talked about this in, in my editor was like, uhhh, and my poor editor was, 'cause we were--there was like the monorails and the monorails, like, she was using like, train nomenclature and monorails don't use that.  They use different, and so I gave it to my editor and the editor's like, yeah, this makes no sense.  Here's like, the actual like, name for the things you're talking about, like, what the split point and all those things, and then I handed this to my fact checker and my fact checker's like, that's not what they're called on monorails and I was just like, what do I do?!  So I think what I basically came down to is I had two different conversations on two different tracks and I chose to go all in on the train metaphor itself which is a wonderful choice.

 (56:00) to (58:00)

H: That sounds, yeah, that sounds very me.  

K: Well, I'm in--well, let's go on the left one and then jump on the right in my mind, which is the left one, which is your book, and yeah, we'll get back to Walt, 'cause I have--I did want to touch on that, but there's a point in your book where you give this very, I think it's the start of a chapter, I don't--I don't even know, it was--you list basically the different types of famous, and then like, you list like, okay, you're famous, you can get recognized like, in a crowd of people, you--but you're always kinda worried you might be recognized but that fear is not really, no, yeah, I'll just recite your book back to you.

H: Yeah.  Yeah.  

K: And then, and then like, you go up the ladder.

H: Yeah.

K: But I think you missed out on internet historian that is known only for voiceover and is faceless, because--

H: Yeah!

K: My numbers are about 1 in 10,000 but it's happened where I've been talking and someone's turned around and been like, are you Kevin?  And I'm like, and because it happens so like, not often, I'm like, I am!  

H: Yep.  That is me!  

K: That is so funny.  I hear like, oh, yeah, that probably would be annoying after a while, which I--

H: Well, I mean, yeah.  I have been recognized for my voice, weirdly.  

K: But not your face?

H: Because I do podcasts, but also because people will listen to Crash Course in just audio form when they're like, trying to learn, you know, like, the circulatory system or something and--

K: In like an hour before the test.

H: And, right, right, so I've, like, I was at, like, getting a salad at one time and some--and I was like ordering and he was like, wait a second!  So that, yep.  That's weird.  The, yeah--but I apologize for not having hit the nail right on the head.  

 (58:00) to (1:00:00)

I did--I also said that like, uh, I put authors in like, with the group that I'm in, which is like tier three, which I call, or what April called 'working class fame', 'cause the book, for clarity, is written by a fictional character.

K: Right.

H: It's a memoir, it's a nonfiction book written by a fictional character.  

K: That takes place--

H: But it--in a fictional universe.  

K: In a fictional universe.

H: As far as I know.

K: Okay, oh.

H: The universe might exist.

K: Oh, so you, so you, yeah.

H: Because it's a big, it's a big, it's a big universe.

K: Okay, so you're--

H: I don't know.  

K: You're describing the canon, which is interesting because if you think, and not to be like, plug my book on top of your book, but my book is written in second person which is, I am telling you what to do at Disneyworld and I wrote--

H: Yeahhh.

K: Which was a horrible idea for my editor, because they're like--

H: Yeah.

K: I turned in the first draft and I'm like, you realize like, 75% of this, you're using 'you' and 'you are' and 'you're' and I'm like yeah, like, yeah, they're the main character.

H: Yeah.  That's what I'm doing.

K: The reader is the main character, and they're like 'this is stupid' and I'm like, well, I'm paying you, I don't know what to tell you.

H: Yeah, it's done now.  

K: It's like, well, it goes to print in a month, so what can you do?  Yeah.  But yeah, so, and then back to the Disney thing, is that--did Disney--I think Disney gets a lot of--Disney like, for a long time, I really think was just a dude and then he kinda let that fame get to his head but also you're forgetting that there's another person here named Roy Disney who's his brother who's doing a lot of those business decisions.

H: Right.

K: That are mainly put on Walt.

H: Right.  Yes.

K: But then you're accurate in that the, like, Walt named--the imagineers is now called 'Walt Disney imagineering', but at the time when he was alive, it was called 'WED', which were his initials and he didn't tell Roy, and so Roy found out that he had named the entire theme park division about himself and before that, it wasn't really like 'Walt Disney Pictures', it was, I'm pretty sure it was just 'Disney Brothers' or 'Disney Pictures' and it was like, wow, so yeah.  

 (1:00:00) to (1:02:00)

Yeah, you're not, you're not super far off, but he did have some great people that surrounded him.

H: Yeah, and I also think that like, there's a general trajectory of like, praising someone and like, feeling very good about it and then like, some people want to come in and like poke the holes, and I think that's legitimate, like, I think that there are always holes to poke, but that's another thing to remember, that there are always holes to poke.

K: Like with Barney.

H: And so like--with Barney?  Like the purple dinosaur?

K: I'm gonna let you--I thought your thought was finished 'cause there was this delay, but I'm gonna let you finish the thought and then I'm gonna come in with my misdirect.  

H: I think my thought's finished.  It's certainly not going anywhere now. 

K: I'm so sorry.  I'm such a terrible host.  The--what was I saying, as I've got ice in my mouth?  Okay, so, so, Barney--people try to, because, in my opinion, like, a lot of people that try to take down Walt Disney for kind of the--those kind of things are, it's either 1) you've done a lot of research or you just happen to know a lot about business culture and you understand what was going on or you just are kind of the playground rumors of like, Walt's head is frozen and like, Walt Disney was crazy.

H: Right.

K: And my example of this is, people like to destroy innocence and my biggest example is there's always that rumor from Barney.

H: Right.  Right.

K: That Barney like, kids stepped on his tail and he turned around and started cussing them out on TV.

H: Yeah.

K: Which never happened for no reason, for all reasons, other than Barney is not a real dinosaur.  He does not have feeling in his tail.  There are no--if the kids stepped on his tail, it wouldn't hurt.  You know, like?

H: Yeah.

 (1:02:00) to (1:04:00)

K: And that's the rumor that you hear and it's just like, yeah, so I was trying to agree with you with a fun analogy but I just actually got us off track again so.  

H: Yeah, like, yeah, and what like, another good example is Thomas Edison who, when I was a kid, you like, learned about how amazing Thomas Edison was.  It was like, part of school curricula to be like, here's all the amazing things Thomas Edison did, inventors are amazing, and then like, some--at some point, I think I was probably in college, people started like, whispering about Nikola Tesla and how Nikola Tesla was actually the cool inventor that we should be talking about but he didn't have an American enough name and uh, and Thomas Edison beat him down and like, made him, made America forget him.  We need to bring back Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison killed an elephant and it's terrible.  He did, like, he did do that, and like, he was cutthroat and he did follow the Standard Oil model and he was trying to become a billionaire and he did do that and he didn't invent that much.  He mostly employed people who invented but like, also, you know, that guy got like, electric lights in my house.  That's nice.

K: Yeah.

H: So like, the work got done, it's just like, the story is more complicated than, you know, you get told when you're in elementary school and then you start hearing like a more complicated version of the story and you're like, well, it was all lies!  

K: No, it was not all lies.

H: It turns out they don't tell you the whole truth when you're in 3rd grade.

K: What do you mean I can't celebrate Columbus Day?  Why.

H: Let's fight about that.

K: I--what do you mean?  I celebrate Columbus Day the same every year.  I go and I cut my friend's hands off for stealing my stuff and then I do the rest of it, you know.

H: And then I do the rest of it, and then I take a continent to be my own.

K: That was the rest of it.  Um, yeah.  What is, and I've been meaning to ask, I had a list of questions and I was gonna ask you like, if things, and there was never a lull in this conversation, in fact, it was more the opposite, but the--which is amazing, but, I had this list like, what's your favorite theme park ride?  So what is your favorite theme park ride?  

H: Oh, Space Mountain, I'm sorry to say apparently to the man who's afraid of Space Mountain.

K: I love it. 

H: Space Mountain is by far my favorite theme park ride.  Like, I tried to go on it at least two times every time I'm in at Disney, and I don't ha--I don't have enough data to have a preference between the parks.

K: That's fine.  

 (1:04:00) to (1:06:00)

I'm gonna tell you the Disneyland version of Space Mountain is way better than--

H: Okay, well, that's the one I've been on most recently, 'cause, you know, 'cause of VidCon.  I'm in Anaheim pretty frequently and--

K: Wait, you invented that, right?

H: VidCon?

K: Yeah.

H: I mean, I don't know if I invented it, but yes, I started it.

K: I said that like, as a joke and I was telling someone like, oh Hank Green's gonna be on my podcast, and he was like, who's that?  And I'm like, he's the guy that invented like, VidCon and--

H: That's--good.

K: And then I looked it up and you actually did.  

H: I also created PodCon, which is coming up if you want to know a podcast convention to know about.  It's in January in Seattle.  Should I start plugging things?

K: Yeah, go for it.

H: Also, there--we've been talking about the book a lot, so I think we're good.  I think we're good there.

K: Sure.  Yeah, this is just my public platform to get, I don't even know if I can qualify for PodCon or what even is--is it just like VidCon but for like, podcasters?  

H: It's pretty similar, yeah.  

K: Okay.  Good talk.

H: You know (laughs), yeah, it is a chance for people who make podcasts and for people who love podcasts to get together and talk about how podcasts get made, do live podcasts, do weird one-off podcasts where you put two podcasters from different podcasts into a new podcast where they have to figure out something to talk about that is dumb that they will only do one episode of, lots of weird stage shows, ghost stories, and also like, talking about the craft and how this thing works and how you make good content in audio.

 (1:06:00) to (1:08:00)

K: How do you do that?  Can you give me like, a quick crash course?

H: First of all, you don't like, put a bunch of ice in your mouth.

K: Oh my gosh.  

H: Like, that's like, number one.

K: Oh my gosh.  That's actually gonna be the thing you remember me for.  You're gonna be like, yeah, I was on this podcast with this guy.  He had ice in his mouth.  And I was just like, no, I was just--

H: The whole time.  Did he just get his wisdom teeth out?  I don't know.  But he's just--

K: Hey, I had ice once, okay, do not misrepresent me.

H: He had ice in his mouth.

K: It was a one-time thing.  I was trying to do the over/under on which sounds worse: having a sticky mouth or having a mouth with ice in it and we found out the answer but how would we have done that should we not have tried?

H: Yeah, how would we ever have known?  How would we ever have known?

K: Well, um, my last question for you--

H: Okay.

K: Is about the book, because I did read this and now I have some sort of emotional investment in this, moreso than theme parks at the moment because I just got--I just finished reading it three or two days ago, or having someone read it to me through Audible,  

H: DearHank.

K: DearHank, DearHank, there you go.  I knew you had one.  You just didn't tell me earlier.  So, uh, so if--you've been on a lot of podcasts.  You've been doing a lot of interviews.  You did a frickin' book tour.  Here's the question that I hope no one's asked you and I'm sure they have: If you, I'm gonna give you the platform the next minute or two or however long you wanna take, to be as arrogant and as you know, self-indulging, what is the--

H: Oh yeah.

K: Right, I know, right?  What is the most--

H: Everybody's gonna love that.

K: Yeah, no, I think this is gonna get great reviews.  What is the most genius part of what you wrote?  'Cause you know--I know I write stuff all the time and I have, I have little things in there that I, you know--

H: Yeah.

K: What are you most proud of?  What did you do in that book and you were like, I'm a genius.  

 (1:08:00) to (1:10:00)

And you might have felt bad saying it, but what was it?

H: Well, I mean, there's--so there's like, the funny answer, which is that at one point in the book, April publishes a book and she tweets about the fact that her book is coming out and she tweets the link to Amazon--

K: Oh, I've seen--yes.  

H: And if you follow the Amazon link, it is a link to a 50 gallon drum of personal lubricant and every time somebody types in that Amazon link and sends me a little note saying 'Good on you, Hank Green', I just feel a little surge of like, ahhh.  I'm a real author, aren't I?  

K: Okay, but you know, you know that--

H: With my lube joke.

K: You know that one person did that and they were like, I mean, I do need lube.  

H: Yeah, and I do need to get my whole body into a drum of lube.  It's true.  Finally, my--it's taken care of.  

K: Well, they were listening to the audiobook and Goo--or, I guess reading the book because they didn't like spell out the link in the audiobook, they were Googling the like, and they were like, oh, I'm gonna look up this link 'cause it's right here.  Oh my gosh, it's the exact thing I was looking for.  What do you know?  

H: What do you know.

K: What's the not fun answer?  What is the like, I'm a genius arrogant answer?  'Cause I mean, like, this is your--like, I'm telling you to do it, like, tell me why you think you're a genius.

H: Yeah.  Oh, yeah.  Uh, I'm gonna do my best to answer your question honestly.  Um, so like, the conclusion of the book, the climax and like, how it all ties together, like, I thought that was gonna be the part where I felt like a genius, that like, 'cause--doing that is something that I've never done before, but like, really very much love a book where like, all of the loose ends get tied up.

 (1:10:00) to (1:12:00)

Even if a couple ones get opened up afterward, I apologize.  But like, during the climax, all of these loose ends get tied up and like, how does that happen and what is the--and it turned out that was just work and it didn't feel like inspiration, it felt like grinding, and just like, finding all the things and trying out every possible scenario until I found one that worked extremely well, and so like, that didn't feel like genius 'cause it felt like work, and that's a thing generally when like, oftentimes what we see as genius was just work, but that being said, there is a very, you know, important part of the book and like, sort of like the entire second act, the tension of it relies on this sort of like, puzzles that happen in inside of a dream, and the, the uh, I don't know how spoilery I should get here--

K: Spoiler alert.

H: The mechanism of how that dream works, so this happens while you're asleep, the mechanism of how it works and how it ended up like, being like, such a point of tension.  Like, I can't even tell you how I thought of it.  I just--it just happened and like, when people ask me, I'm like, I literally have no idea.  It was one of those moments where I was just like, typing and typing and typing 'cause it was so good and then after it happened, I couldn't identify any of where any of it came from, and so that's the part where it felt like, oh, like, do I have a skill?  

K: Well, like, yeah, because, I mean, it's because that was such a catalyst for some other characters in the book.  

 (1:12:00) to (1:13:40)

Like, the entire world is now having that and then so many like, you can probably just--pages and pages of the reaction to the idea, right?  

H: Mhmm, yeah.

K: That's so--because I come up with jokes sometimes that like, you know, when I'm writing and I think I'm funny and then like, I'll come up with a joke and it'll be like really good and then I'll be like, I think about it more and then the more I think about it, the funnier it is and then I'm like, where did--no, come back, like, come back funny thought.  Like, where did you go?  Like, come back, comedy brain.  Like, I'll never be able to craft a joke this good again for my stupid bit on carnival rides.  

H: So you're like, your like, good joke turns into a full on creative crisis.  

K: I'll be like, I'll never do it again.  My friends are calling me and I'm just crying like, lighting things on fire.

H: I'm never gonna have a good joke again!  I've peaked!  

K: Well, Hank, thank you so much for coming on today.  This has been really fun.

H: Yeah, I had an absolutely great time.  Hey, if you wanna find more about me, my book is called An Absolutely Remarkable Thing and Kevin liked it?  Did you like it?

K: No, I really did.  I liked it.  I read it and I liked it, which, just the reading it part, man, like, that--and it wasn't even just to impress you, it was just so I, like, 'cause I started it to impress you and then afterward, I was like, okay, I'm reading a book now and then I finished it and I was like, wow, I did that because I liked it, not because I wanted to impress you, so I think you did a great job.  

H: That's great, thank you.

K: Yeah, it was great.

H: Thank you.

K: To everyone listening, thank you for listening.  Don't forget to rate, reveiw, and subscribe to the podcast and thank you for visiting Defunctland.