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What is a mug without a handle? When's the right time to get a Saturn tattoo? Should I come out when I'm not ready? And more!

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 (00:00) to (02:00)

[Dear Hank and John intro music plays] 

Hank: Hello and welcome to Dear Hank and John!

Gaby Dunn: Or as I like to call it, Dear Gaby. That's it, just Dear Gaby. No one else [both laugh] No one else is here.

Hank: Dear - Man. I would read your advice column. This is a podcast- it's a comedy podcast, about death oftentimes, where two brothers, but occasionally a special guest will answer your questions, give you dubious advice, and bring you all the week's news from both Mars and AFC Wimbledon.
And today we are joined by Gaby Dunn. Hello Gaby.

Gaby: Hi! Thank you for having me on my own show, which is called Dear Gaby. 

Hank: It's great to have you. When did you start up this advice podcast about death all by yourself? 

Gaby: Oh, I would say 30 seconds ago. 

Hank: [laughs] Good! Well thanks so much for having me on. I really wanted to do this podcast because I'm a huge fan of work that you do and I know that I want to help you promo your new book that's coming out and the new tour you're going on, but also I wanted to promo some of my own stuff, so I'm coming on the podcast to tell people about some of the stuff that I'm working on. We'll get to that though. Have you had a good week so far? It's Monday. It's like 12 o'clock on a Monday. So have you the first good three hours of your week so far?

Gaby: Oh, sort of. We were just talking about how neither of us are being productive today particularly. And also, I didn't invite you on my show so it's like super weird, but you're the first guest. Just like didn't - I don't know, got to talk to my booker I guess. 

Hank: [laughs] Yeah, I just showed up. You just started recording and then suddenly I was inside of your podcasting software?

Gaby: Yeah, it's actually, like, pretty weird. But I'm so glad you're here because we have so many questions coming up about bisexuality and I know that you're an expert, so-

[both laugh] 

 (02:00) to (04:00)

Hank: I'm not saying that we saved up a bunch of questions that John and I didn't feel qualified to answer for when we had a guest who has a broader set of experiences than we do, but there may be more kinds of questions like that than usual. 

Gaby: I honestly love to be tokenized, if people could just have me and book me on things and give me work based on that I would really appreciate it. Mama's got to eat, so if someone could-

Hank: Alright. Well, then you're in the right place, 'cause this is the highest paying podcast in the podcast business. Are there, do- no podcast-

Gaby: I've heard that.

Hank: By which I mean it pays the exact same amount as all other podcast gigs. Which I assume is zero dollars. I have never heard of a person being paid to be on a podcast. But maybe! 

Gaby: Yeah. Especially my show Bad With Money. We pay all the guests. It's just kind of a wink to how bad I am at money. 

[Hank laughs] 

Gaby: It's like part of the show. 

Hank: We make like 30 dollars an episode and we pay 50 dollars an episode to the guests. 

Gaby: Yep, and then I just light a bunch of hundreds on fire.

Hank: It's good. 

Gaby: Just to like, you know. For art. 

Hank: Yeah. You've got to be authentic. Alright, Gaby. Did you bring us a short poem today?

Gaby: Yeah I brought a sexy poem because I felt like that was my brand. Um-

Hank: Ok. I'm uncomfortable already. 

Gaby: [laughs] So I brought- Oh, God, that's my goal is to just make you as uncomfortable as possible. I don't know if that's come through in everything that I do-

Hank: Well it's working. Mmhmm.

Gaby: Ok, So it's a nice one! It's an E.E. Cummings poem that I really like and it's - I'll just, do I say the title, or I just read it? I'll just read-

Hank: Yeah, you can say the title. 

Gaby: Well the title is sort of the first line. But whatever. So ok, this is the poem. It goes, "I like my body when it is with your body. It is so quite new a thing. Muscles better and nerves more. I like your body, I like what it does. I like it's hows. I like to feel the spine of your body and its bones. And the trembling firm smoothness in which I will again and again and again kiss. I like kissing this and that of you. I like slowly stroking the shocking fuzz of your electric fur and what it is comes over parting flesh and eyes big love crumbs. And possibly I like the thrill of under me you, quite so new."

 (04:00) to (06:00)

Gaby: That end part is my favorite. I love that part. 

Hank: Mm. Mmhmm.

Gaby: It's so good. It's so like, I don't know, I just always really, that always stuck with me. I always really liked the last two lines of that poem.

Hank: I never really think about whether or not a poet, like a famous poet especially, like E.E. Cummings, or Shakespeare, was kind of like - to what extent were their poems involved in the process of getting them laid? 

Gaby: Oh a hundred percent! You think he had wrote that for someone not to read it to them and be like, "so, right? So... [Hank laughs] So like, we, we doing this, or what's the deal?" I feel like all art is just like people trying to be like, "Huh? So? Who's- Someone's gonna [bleeped] me now, right?" Like, that's what we're all doing here? 

Hank: Right well-

Gaby: And then what's also fun is that a lot of these writers, who you read their work and it's like, you know, in school and stuff they show you like, the PG work. 

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: And then later you go back and you read and you're like, "Oh. Ok." Like, did you know Shel Silverstein wrote erotica? Like so much erotica.

Hank: Yeah! I did know that. I did. And I was upset when I found out, because I was too young. I was too young to find out. 

Gaby: [laughs] He was like, a prolific erotica writer. And then like, I think-

Hank: Yeah, and like funny, funny like dirty drawings too, like hilarious dirty drawings. And I was like twelve. And there was like Shel Silverstein books at my friend's mom's place. 

Gaby: Oh no.

Hank: And there was like one that was not- kid's book. And I was just like, that- ok. Oh! Put that back, and pretend like that never happened. Ah, which is fine. 

Gaby: Yeah, or like you just find- 

Hank: I turned out ok.

Gaby: Did you? Are you alright? You're sweating right now. 

Hank: [laughs] Yeah, just this entire conversation. I want out, Gaby. 

 (06:00) to (08:00)

Gaby: Nope! [laughs] 

Hank: Good, you're doing your job!

Gaby: I came- Thank you! Oh I'm so glad oh, I came just to- I actually didn't know if this was like a PG-13 podcast, and I just went for it.

Hank: Oh well we're going to have to bleep some of you, for sure.

Gaby: Really?

Hank: That's allowed.

Gaby: Do you bleep?

Hank: Oh, yeah, we bleep. 

Gaby: Really?

Hank: We bleep here on Dear Hank and John. John has cursed a total of I think three times on this podcast. Our guests significantly more. I don't think I've ever done it. 

Gaby: Really?

Hank: I'm pretty good at not cursing.

Gaby: Do you want to do it now and then you can bleep it? 

Hank: Hmm, which word should I pick? 

Gaby: I mean, probably just like- 

Hank: Old goldie. Mr. [bleeped] 

Gaby: Oooh! I came here to ruin this show and I have done my job. We are nine minutes in and I have ruined this show. 

Hank: Oh is that, I don't know, I feel like it's going very well, I feel completely unruined. 

Gaby: Oh good, good, good.

Hank: Do you want to do some questions? 

Gaby: Yeah, yeah! Let's take some gay-ass questions. 

Hank: Alright, this one's from Elizabeth, who asks, "Dear Hank and Gaby, Greetings! I am a young queer woman who has recently ventured into the world of dating. However, I'm not out to my parents. I've been talking to this girl for a few weeks, and we've been on one date. However, we're about to go on another date tomorrow and I'm realizing that I'll have to tell my parents where I'm going, because I might be gone for almost the entire day" which sounds like a fun cool date, I want to know more about this. 

Gaby: Yeah! 

Hank: "This would require one of two situations occurring. Either one, telling them the truth and coming out when I'm not ready or two, lie to my parents. Neither are really great options. Any dubious advice would be appreciated. Gay and scared, Elizabeth." 

Gaby: Oh my god, I want gay and scared on a mug. Um- [both laugh] Just the classic "it me." Yeah, well, one, kudos to you for being a kid who doesn't want to lie to their parents. That's weird, what's that like? 

Hank: [laughs] 

 (08:00) to (10:00)

Gaby: And I mean, I always say like for coming out when you live with your parents, it really comes down to, like, how safe you feel-

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: So if you feel like they're going to react poorly and you're going to have to find a different living situation, or there's some sort of, like, abuse that's going to happen, or just anything where you're not physically safe, I don't recommend coming out. I used to be really militant about, like, you have to come out to show them that they have a queer kid so they can change their mind. But now I'm sort of like, the practicality of it- like if you don't feel safe, don't make yourself unsafe as like a political statement. But if- also like, I don't know, parents are dense. So if you're like, I'm going to spend the day with my female friend, they'd be like, cool. Be gal pals. have fun. I guess you personally don't feel good lying to them. But like, what have you been doing up till now? 

Hank: Right. 

Gaby: I think you have to look out for yourself. 

Hank: Right, and then there's. Yeah. I mean of course it's like parent to parent situation here. But there was a moment when my parents were pretty sure I was gay. And so like, there were a number of clues that were leading them in that direction.

Gaby: [laughs]

My interests, my friend group. And, you know, because we have stereotypes, and I was fitting in to some of them. So I think you can, like- I don't encourage this, but there is a sense that like, you can be like, boy it seems like Elizabeth has been hanging out with Christina a whole lot lately. 

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: Seems like they're spending all day, and not just daytime but nighttime. And a lot of- maybe they'll just sort of get it. 

Gaby: Yeah, or-

Hank: But that's not necessarily how you want to do. 

Gaby: I mean it's also like, they might not- they really might not get it. And also, I don't mean to, like, I don't know how old this person is, and I don't mean to, like- but you can kind of get away with sleepovers for like, a while. You know what I mean?

 (10:00) to (12:00)

Gaby: Before they know what's up. 

Hank: Hmmm. 

Gaby: Like you could sort of, you could get like, door closed sleepovers for like, a good solid month before they're like, what's going on? And maybe you want to just, like, do that for a bit? 'Cause like, look, there's so many disadvantages about being queer that like, let us have those door closed sleepovers before you guys realize what's up. Like, give us that one thing. No one's getting pregnant, it's fine. 

Hank: I also, I feel like. Elizabeth, again, good on you for wanting to tell your parents the truth. And I think that being conflicted about this at all is the right place to be. And you have to make the decision based on who you are, and your situation. 

Gaby: Did your parents ever ask you, like, "Hank, what's going on? Why you acting- "

Hank: Uh, no, they said things to the tune of, "whoever you are, it's ok with us." Kind of things.

Gaby: Aww. Everybody should do that, all parents. 

Hank: Like to let me know that- yeah.

Gaby: All parents should do that. 

Hank: Totally. Agreed. 

Gaby: Regardless of if you think your kid is gay. 'Cause a lot of times, like, there's very feminine girls who end up being bisexual or queer or lesbian and their parents were like, "oh I guess we don't have to worry." But you can start that, just start telling your kid that from day one. 

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: What were some of your interests?

Hank: Oh, I really liked going to the skating rink. And just ice skating. Not like playing - eventually I started playing hockey. But just like, the free skate, like by myself, I would go and they'd play like, pop music and you'd just skate around. I'd do that.

Gaby: Oh my god. 

Hank: All of my friends were female. 

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: And that sort of remains a thing? Of course I have dude friends. But like, mostly it's like, the husbands of my friends are my dude friends. 

 (12:00) to (14:00)

Gaby: [laughs] Did you ever see that SNL skit that was like a wishing well for boys? And it was like a gift that you get for a young boy and it's just this like sensitive boy who wants to sit by a well and then it's like, the end of the sketch is like, "it's not a gay thing. I mean, it is, but it's not." And I was like, oh my god, that's what you remind me of. The little sensitive boy next to the well.

Hank: Yeah and I really liked musicals. [laughs] Stuff like that. 

Gaby: Awww. You're just a sensitive soul. 

Hank: I mean, what is it all? As we have found, over the last 10 years, it turns out, ahh, there are no boxes. It's hard to put people in boxes, and that's the beautiful thing. We're all our own box. 

Gaby: "Dear Gaby, As I become more senior at work, I find myself-" [both laugh] 

Hank: Just erasing me from the podcast!

Gaby: Yep! "As I become more senior at work, I find myself in the position of being asked to supervise or give feedback to less experienced coworkers.  I find this challenging, firstly because I do not want to hurt my coworkers' feelings, secondly often it's just easier to fix their work myself, but I know this is not the best way to help my coworkers grow professionally.  How do you go about giving feedback in a way that is, one, kind, and two, helps the person fix their work and three, helps the person grow professionally for the next project?  Ad meloria- meliora, Jessica." What's ad meliora? 

Hank: We have a thing on our podcast where people- we compliment people on their signoffs, which has resulted in people making their signoffs really weird.  I think it means- it means the better?  

Gaby: Oh.  

Hank: I don't know why.  

Gaby: Or all the best, or something.  Well you know what, a little bit of a deep cut, Jessica, so don't make us work for it. Umm, Okay.  I-

Hank: [laughs] That was really good feedback! That was really good feedback to your coworker Jessica. 

Gaby: [laughs] No I'm just mean. 

 (14:00) to (16:00)

Gaby: Ok. Well, I think- what's interesting, and I learned this from Allison primarily, is that you have to start- it's like the compliment sandwich. So you have to start-

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby:with being like, "Great job. You did so good on the lighting. Here's why the sound is bad." And I used to never do that, and I realized, I was like, "Who are these babies that need me to talk to them that way." But it turns out, everyone. The babies are everyone. 

Hank: [laughs] Including me. I'm also the baby. 

Gaby: [laughs] Yeah, I guess so. Why, what's your advice? 

Hank: No, I mean you. You are the baby, like, you don't like it when people just come out and are like, "Here's the criticism with none of the praise."

Gaby: Uh- 

Hank: "Just fix the thing that's wrong." I assume? Because you're a person. But maybe you're the exception. 

Gaby: Yeah, sometimes I like to just get to it. But I understand why. I mean, you know. There's this whole thing, especially as women, and I'm sure Jessica- I was about to lead with that with Jessica, like, it's this hard thing as women in supervising positions where you have to sort of be like, "Hey, buddy!" like with a smile on your face.

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: You can't just go up and say what they need to do because then everyone will be like, "Jessica's a bitch." Um, sorry. now you're going to bleep me again. But yeah, so, I mean it's tough. I also understand the impulse to take over, but part of me is like, yes, the work will be done correctly the way you view it as correctly, but you've also hired this person who may have a different way of doing it, and if you ask them to fix it, the way that they do it will be different than the way that you do it, and that's ok, and like, you wanted their skill set anyway. So I don't know, I think you have to let go of the idea that your way of doing it is fixing it. You know what I mean? Am I making sense, like, your way of doing it-

Hank: Yes.

Gaby: is not necessarily a hundred percent correct. You have to like ,be ok with what the other person contributes. 

Hank: Yeah. And I have struggled with that, where I'll be like, if it's not the way I would have done it then it's wrong. It took me a while to get away from that.

 (16:00) to (18:00)

Hank: The other thing that I'll say to Jessica that was really important for me to realize is that when you say, like, "it's easier to fix their work myself," you are not giving yourself the chance to learn and grow and become better at your job. Which is the work that you have to do to help your coworkers get better at their jobs. So you're not good at this part of your job yet, because it's new to you. And if you're just fixing their work, if something is wrong and you're like, "Ah, it's easier for me to just fix it than to have a conversation about what's wrong," then you're not getting better at that. You are doing the thing that you- like, you're doing it to yourself at the same time you're doing it to your coworker. So when you actually do it, it's harder. Like, it's more difficult work at first to figure out how to talk to your coworker about how to make their work better than it is to just make the work better yourself. But like, that gets easier for you as well just by doing it. By doing it over and over again and like, I now regularly send emails- like I have to figure out what I don't like about a thing, and I have to communicate that effectively, which is not necessarily super easy, but I've gotten a lot better at it, and at getting that information across in a way, and also understanding individual humans, so that I know the way to tell one person is different than the way to tell another person. Which is absolutely fine- that's one of the things about managing is understanding the people that you manage. Not just like, every person is the same and you should treat them all the same. I don't really believe that, I think that like, you need to understand what motivates different people and how they respond to both praise and criticism, and what kind of praise and what kind of criticism motivates them the most. Which is shocking how different people are!

Gaby: Yeah, big time.

Hank: Especially how they are not me! Over and over again I continue to realize that other people are not me. 

Gaby: [laughs] Yeah! 

 (18:00) to (20:00)

Hank: Which is a big important lesson of management. 

Gaby: Yeah, big time. And you have to, like, it's going to hurt their feelings and make them worse at their job if you just do the work for them. 

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: So I think you gotta, yeah. I think you can't have people working for you that you're just doing their job for them, 'cause then they'll just get resentful too. It's a bad pattern. That was a good question. Damn! 

Hank: That's right! We get lots of good questions here at Dear Hank and John. I'm gonna ask another one, if that sounds like a good plan to you.

Gaby: Yeah, go for it. 

Hank: This one I like a lot. It's from Christina, who asks, "Dear Hank and Gaby, I've been a Nerdfighter and involved in various fandoms for probably seven plus years now. In my younger teen years I was really active in these communities and I ate up as much content IRL as I could. I'm nineteen now, and I feel this weird sense of disassociation from it all. I still identify as a Nerdfighter and love all the content coming from all those other fandoms that I was into. But when I see video of young teenage girls in the mass of thousands screaming for these Youtubers that  I adore, I can't help but feel uncomfortable. I used to be that girl. I still unapologetically love all these things, but I feel weird about conventions and IRL meetups. Do these people they idolize- These people they idolize are just people. They binge watch Stranger Things and wake up surrounded in popcorn crumbs and regret just like the rest of us. Am I just growing up? Am I in the wrong here? Will all of those adolescent girls I see at VidCon crowds go through the same thing I am? Demogorgons and Self Doubt, Christina." 

Gaby: Uh, yes. You're growing up. As Blink-182 said, that's what, this is growing up. Um-

Hank: [laughs] They said it so many different times in that one song. 

Gaby: Yep! I guess this is growing up. Yeah, I mean, I used to be super, super into fandom. Like, I used to be all, it was like, all consuming. But that was because I was young and I felt powerless and I had, you know, I didn't have the ability to like, have a car and live on my own and do anything for myself.

 (20:00) to (22:00)

Gaby: And I, like, wanted some kind of feeling like I was a part of something. And it was, like, yeah. I've gone through almost the exact same thing that Christina's describing where you just kind of start to pull back and you're like, "wait a minute. Everyone is a person, all your faves are problematic." Like, nobody, and I don't know if this is just because I slowly became- like, I was the person waiting in line for these things, and now at VidCon people wait in line to see me. And that messes with me a lot, like, it's very weird.

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: And so it gave me, like, the knowledge to know how to treat these people. And so like, if you feel a little disillusioned with it, at least like, take into your life of like, ok, I know how to treat other people with kindness because of how I would have wanted to have been treated by these people that were- had like, quote unquote, power over me, I guess. 'Cause I idolized them. But yeah. It's just- I think it really is just growing up, because you start to realize that there's like, other stuff going on for you. When you're young there's not really- I mean, it's pretty boring being a kid [laughs].

Hank: Well it's also, I think that there's a lot of- and this goes on forever of course- but there's a lot of figuring yourself out and you're looking for models through which to figure yourself out. And that's both, like the things that you love and like, identifying with those things and defining yourself through the things that you love- which is a lot better than defining yourself through the things that you hate- 

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: And there's looking for people to sort of be models for behavior, and that's both other people in communities or it's the people who are creating the stuff that you love. And I- I mean, I was a huge like, nerd fan, and I would wait in long lines to meet my favorite musicians and authors. And also like totally, like, there will be times when people will go over a line-

 (22:00) to (24:00)

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: But I did that too. Like, I was the guy who went over the line. 

Gaby: Me too!

Hank: And, like, not like, every time. But there are a couple of times- maybe just one time, when I maybe figured out what hotel a musician was staying at and I called him on the phone and he answered and he was like, "Hello?" and I was like, "Great show tonight!", and he was like, "[shuddering noise] Oh god." 

Gaby: Right!

Hank: So that was me! And so now, from now on, whenever somebody does something like that to me I have to be like, I can't really complain that much. 

Gaby: Yeah and I had- I also think, so it makes me, like, everything feels so important when you're young. Like, so important. And so it makes me have a lot of empathy for, you know, for instance like, when stuff happens in queer fandom. Like when lesbian characters are killed off or when an actor that we really loved says something homophobic or trans phobic or whatever and it's just- like, I understand how devastating that is whereas like, I think I see a lot of people writing off teenage fandom, Or like, teen girls-

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: - in particular where they're like, "this is so silly, this is so dumb." Or they don't, you know, care about them. Like, the number one thing to me is you don't alienate queer fandom and you don't alienate teenaged fandom. Like, they love so passionately and they care so much because this is the most important time in their life to them, and so if you're part of that, you should feel so grateful and so lucky and so blessed that they'd even like, connected with you in some way. So it is hard to draw the line between, like, "Oh wow, they're really screaming and that's pretty annoying" versus like [Hank laughs] , putting into- or you know, like, people wanting to find my dad on Facebook or whatever. Like-

Hank: Right. Yeah.

Gaby: I completely get it, like, I get it. 

 (24:00) to (26:00)

Gaby: So I know- But, growing up is starting to see that that is crossing some sort of, you know, that is crossing-

Hank: Yeah.

Gaby: -some sort of boundary, and that's why you shouldn't behave that way into your thirties. Unless you're like planning to murder someone, I guess.

Hank: [laughing] Well, or like, I do think that I'm super into like, pictures of moms at New Kids on the Block concerts-

Gaby: Yes!

Hank: Like, New Kids on the Block went on a reunion tour and like, the pictures of 45 year old women at New Kids on the Block concerts are my jam. And like, I love that there still are those opportunities to be like, "I'm gonna get in touch with that. I'm gonna remember what that was like."

Gaby: But you enjoy it-

Hank: But the other thing I want to say- 

Gaby: You enjoy it and you don't stalk Jordan-

Hank: Yeah. Of course.

Gaby: Jordan McKnight afterwards. 

Hank: [laughs] The other thing I want to say to Christina is like, as I've gotten older the way that I- like, I think that the amount of appreciation and enthusiasm I think I have for things hasn't decreased. I think maybe it's a little more spread out. And it's also- it's less focused on individual people, and more focused on the sort of broad scope- like I'm less into, like Gordon Gano from the Violent Femmes as I am into, like individual songs or understanding, like, the complexities of a rhyme scheme or even like a marketing strategy that maybe a musician used that is really like, positive and smart, effective, and like, good for the world-

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: Like, if you could- finding those ways that, like, - I appreciate people in very different ways now, and often it's not so much about like, sort of all focused on my imagined version of what their personality is- because of course it's always imagined, when it's not- even when it is a person you know- even when it's yourself there's a lot of imagining that goes on. But I find that like, I'm still super- when I find something that I love, like when I get into a new podcast or a new book series or something, I still love it in really deep and passionate ways but it's focused in a different way. 

 (26:00) to (28:00)

Gaby: Yeah.

Hank: And I don't think that that means- and like, and at VidCon we try to have like, all of those kinds of discussions going on, where it's like, yes, there's places for screaming and going crazy and there's places for like, let's have conversations about the effect that these things are having or the difficulties people are facing or the exciting things that are happening. 

Gaby: Yeah, it's also realizing that people aren't perfect is the really big- like I still obviously-

Hank: Mmhmm

Gaby: Like, you should obviously still have passions and love stuff but like realizing that- my stuff's become less person-focused too, because you get disappointed by people. And that's why I don't date fans! Because I feel like what am I going to do?

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: Just disappoint them? 'Cause everyone's like, oh, but you seem like you would take advantage of that kind of thing. No, that's horrible! That's like, first of all-

Hank: [laughs] Thanks for saying that about me-

Gaby: I'm like a - I don't know what the proper word to use on this podcast is, Lothario? But I'm not like trying, you know [both laugh] I'm not like, going after fans, 'cause there's a power dynamic and I think that a lot of- yeah you just start to slowly not focus on individual people as much, I think. In my experience. 

Hank: I had to google Lothario.

Gaby: [laughs]

Hank: So I did that, and now I know. "A male given name which suggests an unscrupulous seducer of women." 

Gaby: Yeah, that seems right. That checks out. [laughs] Uh, "Dear Gaby, and I guess Hank, I want to get a fairly realistic- [both laugh] I want to get a fairly realistic tattoo of Saturn but it feels like NASA updates their images of Saturn every few weeks. Should I get a tattoo based on the current available images of Saturn and just accept that it'll be a snapshot of what Saturn looked like at the time I got the tattoo, knowing it will change throughout my life? Or should I wait indefinitely until space photography has advanced?"

 (28:00) to (30:00)

Hank: [laughs] 

Gaby: "General witty signoff, Genina." This is incredible. 

Hank: [laughs] I should wait indefinitely until space photography advances before getting my Saturn tattoo. I actually have an answer for this question that's pretty straightforward. So, NASA is currently updating their images of Saturn a whole lot because there is a mission that is at Saturn and taking lots of great pictures of Saturn, it's called Cassini, and it rocks, and Saturn is a lot of people's favorite planet, uh, I assume aside from earth.

Gaby: [chuckles] 

Hank: And it's a beautiful planet. But the images- so basically it was a twenty year, maybe thirty year period when we didn't get any new pictures of Saturn. And then we started to get these new ones, and they're great. And then we're not going to get any new ones for a long time. So you might want to wait six months until the current crop of Cassini photos get like, a bunch of good post production done on them, 'cause I don't think that there are any new ones coming in anymore, but it does sometimes take a little while for the artists who like, take the raw data and make it into something that's like, "Oh, damn, that's a beautiful planet!" uh, to happen. So, you might want to wait about six months, and then we'll have, I think pretty much all we're gonna get out of Cassini, and then we won't have any new photographs of Saturn for like, decades. Unfortunately. So, we just happen to be living in an amazing time for Saturn photographs, Genina. 

Gaby: [laughing] Do you have any tattoos? 

Hank: I don't have any single tattoos. I'm tattooless. 

Gaby: Interesting. 'Cause I feel like- and this is my non-science answer. I have a bunch of tattoos, and I feel like when people go "Oh, but won't you regret it?" I feel like that is a snapshot in time of what I was at that time. So it might be cool to get a picture of Saturn now, knowing that when you look back, you'll know that it was specifically from this time in your life. Does that make sense?

Hank: Yeah, which is why I should get a tattoo of like, the current shape of Antarctica. 'Cause that's going to change a lot before I die. 

 (30:00) to (32:00)

Gaby: Yeah!

Hank: Be like, "This is what it looked like when I was a kid, y'all. Back when there was more of it."

Gaby: That will be so depressing, Hank.

[both laugh]

Hank: So, do you have tattoos, Gaby, I know you have tattoos, but tell me about your tattoo sitch. 

Gaby: Oh, I have seven of them. I'm about to get more, I think. But, a lot of them I just did kind of on a whim. And then that's how I think about it, is like, you at 22 thought this was cool. And so- 

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: That's not something, like, that's not something to be ashamed of at 29. Like that's, you know?

Hank: Yeah.

Gaby: It's kind of like a, like a photo album or something. About what you- I mean, I have a tattoo on my hand, and I was like, oh I really committed to show business I guess. [both laugh] Yeah, a lot of it is just kind of what I thought was important at the time. And so when I saw that questions I was like, it would be cool to just have Saturn now as it is to you at whatever age you are. And then as it changes you can see how it changed throughout time, you know, throughout your life. That would be kind of cool.

Hank: Yeah, I mean, to be clear Saturn itself has not changed that much, it's just our ability to take good pictures of it has changed. 

Gaby: Oooh.

Hank: I don't want people to come away with the wrong image, like Saturn's out there doing some kind of weird dance and some days it's a square. 

Gaby: [laughs] 

Hank: It's mostly the same. 

Gaby: What would you get a tattoo of if you got one? 

Hank: Oh. I don't know, I- So, mmm. Hah. Uh-

Gaby: What? 

Hank: I have felt more like getting a tattoo since I turned like 37.

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: [laughs] Which-

Gaby: 'Cause like, at this point, what do you have to lose?

Hank: Pretty clearly a sign that I'm headed into a midlife crisis. Like I think it's - I think that that's what's happening. But-

Gaby: Yeah, whatever, what do you have to lose at this point? 

Hank: Exactly. You know, I wrote a thing when I was in college that said I want a job where, when I turn 40 I can get a mohawk and it won't be bad for my career. And I kind of feel like that's the case, but I also kind of feel like I can't have a mohawk and teach a Crash Course. 

 (32:00) to (34:00)

Gaby: Why not? 

Hank: People would be like, "Who is this 40 year old man with a mohawk trying to teach me about chemistry?" 

Gaby: No, what about that guy at NASA that has the mohawk? 

Hank: Yeah, I mean, yeah, except that that guy is an attractive young man. 

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: And I am an attractive old man. 

Gaby: [laughs] I was like, about to yell at you, so good that you specified. 

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: But what would you get? 

Hank: I don't, I feel like I had something. Oh, I was thinking about the end of The Origin of Species is real good. 

Gaby: What is that?

Hank: I'm going to read it to you, but I can't remember it. 

Gaby: It's, oh, words? I was saying you should get words.  I like when men have words-
Hank: Yeah.

Gaby: I like when men have word tattoos. 

Hank: You like men, you like men word tattoos? 

Gaby: I like when men, yeah, when men have just black and, just text. It's very attractive. 

Hank: My cousin is a tattoo artist and he won't do words.

Gaby: Why? 

Hank: He refuses to do words, so I guess I can't go to my cousin. But it's this, from, it's the last paragraph of Darwin's On the Origin of Species where he laid out the theory of Evolution. It says, "There is grandeur in this view of life with its several powers having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one, and that whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity from so simple a beginning, endless forms and most beautiful and most wonder- endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved." Which is just like- sometimes you forget that Charles Darwin was a [bleeped] great writer. 

Gaby: Wow.

Hank: Which is - and now you've made me curse again on this podcast!

Gaby: Sorry! Hahaha. 

Hank: You got two of them out of me! [laughs]

Gaby: Oh, I've done my job. I'm staying so on brand. You should get like the part that just says like, "endless forms of wonderful and beautiful" or something like that. 

 (34:00) to (36:00)

Hank: Yeah. Sure, sure, that's a lot of words. I agree.

Gaby: No, I want to get just, "Pain don't hurt" from Roadhouse. So I'm also an intellectual. 

Hank: [long laugh] Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, it's good. I've thought about getting a DFTBA tattoo, I feel like that's on brand. 

Gaby: Yeah! 

Hank: But, just a reminder. And there's part of me-

Gaby: Where would you get it? 

Hank: -at one point in my life where I wanted to get every logo of every business I started tattooed on me and then somebody was like, "that's the worst thing I've ever heard, so don't do that."

Gaby: Where would you get it? 

Hank: I mean, the only place I'm interested in getting tattoos is my forearms. 

Gaby: Mmhmm. 

Hank: Because I, like, forearm tattoos are my jam. I like forearms, I think that they're one of the best parts of the body. 

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: And also they're really, they're just a good tattoo place because forearm skin for some reason tends to stay nice and good-

Gaby: [laughs] 

Hank: - um, skin. For some reason. 

Gaby: Yeah that's like the- I was gonna say, that's what I like. I like dudes with like word tattoos, black ink word tattoos on their arms. That's very classy and sexy. You should do that! 

Hank: Pain don't hurt! I could get "Pain don't hurt." 

Gaby: Pain don't hurt! [both laugh] I'm such trash. Ok. 

Hank: And that leads us of course to our sponsors for this episode. Our first sponsor is word tattoos-

Gaby: [laughs] 

Hank: - on the male forearm. Word tattoos in black ink on the male forearm. The best kind of tattoos if you want to be admired by Gaby Dunn. 

Gaby: [laughing] Which everyone does. Um, it's also brought to you by the movie Roadhouse. It's a really good movie, it didn't just come out, it's from the 80s. But it's on Amazon? No it's on Hulu. So check it out! 

Hank: It's on Hulu. Can you tell me if the movie Point Break-

Gaby: [gasps]
Hank: -was a spinoff of Roadhouse or were they sort of just like, Venn diagrams that just sort of fuzzled into each other a little bit? 

 (36:00) to (38:00)

Hank: Do you know Point Break?

Gaby: Uh, do I know Point Break, the greatest queer love story of our time? Yeah I do. 

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: Yeah. It's an incredible movie about how Keanu Reeves falls in love with Patrick Swayze and-

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: I don't know, it's, well, I would-

Hank: It's funny, because there is a female love interest in that movie, I understand that she's peripheral? And basically discarded as soon as she fulfills her mission of being a damsel?

Gaby: Yeah, and her name is-

Hank: But, she is there.

Gaby: Hold on. She has short hair and her name is Tyler. You're not getting anything by me, Kathryn Bigelow!

Hank: [laughing] Ah, Kathryn Bigelow being the director of Point Break. 

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: Anyway, our podcast is additionally brought to you by those good, good closed door sleepovers. Get- you can squeeze like a month of them in. Maybe, before people will start to suspect.

Gaby: [laughs] And brought to you by the planet Saturn. It's a square now! [both laugh]

Hank: Finally, this podcast is brought to you by our actual sponsor, which is also a square- it is a Squarespace. It's square- it's just Squarespace.

Gaby: Alley-oop!

Hank: You've heard of square- what?

Gaby: I alley-ooped you. I gave you that one.

Hank: Oh yeah. That was a good alley-oop. 

Gaby: Thanks.

Hank: It was a good alley-oop. You know about- do you know about Squarespace?

Gaby: I do! That's how we have is on Squarespace. 

Hank: Aw, look at you! Yeah, and also if you want to find out how to get a signed copy of my brother's new book, Turtles All the Way Down, you can go to which is also a Squarespace site. Hey, Squarespace is a place where you can really easily make very pretty websites. And then you have a website to do with what you want. Whether that's - they have like an ecommerce platform but there's also just like sort of brochure-y things where you can have a presence that says "Here's what I am and what I do."

 (38:00) to (40:00)

Hank: Which can help you get work, get jobs- it is good to have a website. I always had one until- well I guess I still do have one but it's not on Squarespace. I really need to fix that. It's really not great. 

Gaby: Why would you say that in the ad! 

Hank: Well that's the thing, well because I regret that it's not on Squarespace. Because it's hard for me to update it because it's based on all this old technology that I probably am open to hacking because it doesn't automatically update itself the way that Squarespace does. So I really do need to get on that and create a new Squarespace for my site. Where it will always be updated and I don't have to worry about the server and I don't have to worry about any, like all the different pieces that fit together, or being hacked, or anything like that. Squarespace is going to take care of all of it with 24/7 customer support and really nice looking templates that look good both on mobile and desktop, which my website doesn't. Keep your eye open for a new that's made by Squarespace. I'm really looking forward to that. 'Cause Squarespace!

Gaby: You got

Hank: There are not many Hank Greens in the world, Gaby. 

Gaby: What? It seems like a very common name. 

Hank: Also, I will say that I was pretty active on the internet in like 1998, so-

Gaby: Nice.

Hank: Which maybe is when I registered 

Gaby: Nice. 

Hank: Uh, yeah. Squarespace. Make your next move. And you can do that, and you get a coupon if you go to or use the offer code dearhank. You can also use dearjohn but you don't need to because he's not here today. Don't use dear Gabby though, that won't work. 

Gaby: Well, [scoffs] rude. I was so- we were like, freaking out when your brother said that his book was coming out in the Fall and Allison and I were like, if it is on the same day as ours we will come-

Hank: Uh oh. 

 (40:00) to (42:00)

Gaby: Burn your offices to the ground. 

Hank: Uh oh. Oh God! [laughs] What day does your book come out? 

Gaby: September 5th. 

Hank: Ok.

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: You're way ahead. 

Gaby: Yeah, yeah. 

Hank: You've got a full month before John starts sucking up the oxygen. 

Gaby: Yeah, yeah, we're ok. But it was cute, I saw on Amazon, it said like, "These two often bought together" and it was John's book and our book. And I was like, "Awww". 

Hank: Awww. That's amazing! 

Gaby: Adorable! 

Hank: So, tell me about your book, by the way. 

Gaby: Oh! Yeah, Allison and I wrote a young adult novel together called I Hate Everyone but You. And it's about two girls that go away to college and spoiler alert, they're like, similar to me and Allison and uh, [both laugh] and they go away to college on separate coasts, and one of them is dealing with mental illness and she wants to be normal and have a boyfriend and join a sorority but she also like, can't touch the sheets, and then so is like, having a lot of problems with depression and anxiety, and then the other girl goes to school in Boston and she's coming out and dealing with, like, ethical quandaries and so yeah, it's like, basically if we had known each other during our actual college days-

Hank: Mmhmm. 

Gaby: And then, can they stay friends even though they are so different. 

Hank: Yeah! 

Gaby: It's like a friend- it's a friendship love story. It's like a friendship rom-com. 

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: Yeah! 

Hank: Yeah, and you've got that odd couple thing going. 

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: And it's told through their communications, right? So, there's like a name for that kind of book that I forget what it is. But, like-

Gaby: An epistolary novel! 

Hank: There it is.

Gaby: Yeah. It's told through text messages and emails. And yeah, so that was- one person told us that they loved that because it wasn't too expository. You just really, like, jump in and get to know them, which is nice.

Hank: Yeah.

Gaby: And, personally, I've been really happy because we've gotten a lot of really good, like on a lot of good lists and a lot of good reviews specifically citing how the queer stuff is handled. 

 (42:00) to (44:00)

Hank: Nice. 

Gaby: And that was, like, a really big deal to me. So I was super happy with people singling out- I mean saying the books is good in general but singling out the queer and trans stuff I was like, really I put a lot of myself into, so I was happy that people cared. 

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: So that comes out [laughs] Oh god, so that comes out September 5th. And then we start going on tour right after that. 

Hank: Nice!

Gaby: And yeah so you can see stuff about the book and the tour at and the tour starts the day the book comes out. September 5th. In Philly. 

Hank: Are you coming to Missoula? 

Gaby: No [exasperated noise]

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: And it's not just a book tour, it's also like a live show, we're doing like a live show.

Hank:  Right.

Gaby: So it's like, you know-

Hank: Yeah, John and I are doing the same thing. 

Gaby: Yeah, bang for your buck, or whatever.

Hank: Which I can't talk about at all yet. I apologize for having talked that much about it.

Gaby: [gasps] 

Hank: But there will be a tour. Obviously. We're going to do things. 

Gaby: Is it going to be the same time as ours? 'Cause again, I will come to your house [laughs] 

Hank: I don't know, how late does yours go? Ours starts October 10th.

Gaby: Ok. Yeah, yeah. We won't overlap. Good good good. 

Hank: Ok. [laughs]

Gaby: Yeah, I want to come to Missoula, as you were- I think we talked about it, I want to check out like the, what the gay, the LGBT scene is there in your hip little Montana town. 

Hank: Mmhmm. 

Gaby: I bet it's-

Hank: I can get you clued in. 

Gaby: Yeah, I bet it's poppin' off. [laughs]

Hank: Well, yeah, I think it's pretty - I was hanging out with a friend of mine, who is in that scene yesterday and she said "oh, I just sort of don't go outside the triangle." And I was like, "What's the triangle?" and she like, laid out for me the map, where like, where the roads are. And she's like, "If you stay inside of all these roads it's like queer utopia. And if you go on the other side you start getting looks." And I'm like, "Well, welcome to Montana. I'm glad we have a triangle for you." Uh, Gaby, do you want to do like one or two more questions? 

 (44:00) to (46:00)

Gaby: Yeah!

Hank: This one comes from Andrew, who asks, "Dear Hank and Gaby, Everybody knows that mugs have handles. What do you call a mug without a handle? Is it a cup? Surely it can't be a glass, since that would mean it would be made out of glass. Be safe out there, Andrew." Be safe out there is one of my favorites from the episode. That is a real good sign off, and I'm going to use it more. 

Gaby: Be safe out there implies- what's happening out there? [laughs] 

Hank: Just in general! I think safety is important! 

Gaby: Yeah, I make everyone text me when they get back to their house from my house. Do you do that? 

Hank: [laughing] No. No, I don't. I live inside the triangle. It's good. 

Gaby: Like just, because what if they go missing and then I end up having to be like, in their trial, giving testimony-

Hank: Right.

Gaby: - and then I'm the last person that saw them. [both laugh] I had- wait, can I tell you something messed up? I had a-

Hank: Ok...

Gaby: No, it's not-

Hank: As long as you're not admitting to murder. 

Gaby: No, no, I had an ex boyfriend who was like, very funny, but very dark sense of humor. And I was joking and I was like, "if I ever die, and I go missing without a trace, like, he did it. But if I die and it's just blood everywhere and it was a crime of passion, then Allison did it."  And then-

Hank: [laughs] 

Gaby: And then we were laughing, and then he goes, "what makes you think I wouldn't spread your blood around and frame Allison?" And then Allison and I both went "Oh, my god!".

Hank: Aaaaah [sobbing noise] 

Gaby: We're like, "holy [bleeped]" 

Hank: Oh god. 

Gaby: It's too much true crime. 

Hank: Oh yeah.

Gaby: But, yeah so-

Hank: But back to the mug. 

Gaby: Yeah.

Hank: I don't know how we got to murder. But yeah, that's very Dear Hank and John of us. I think a mug without a handle is just a piece of crap. Like it's just useless BS that shouldn't exist. Because the whole point is it's for hot stuff, and if you don't have a handle you're not adequately protecting yourself from the hot stuff. 

Gaby: Have you ever been to a restaurant where they give you, like, hot tea or coffee in a glass cup? 

 (46:00) to (48:00)

Hank: No, because that is illegal or it should be.

Gaby: No, they do that here in L.A. all the time and I don't under- like, do you want me to be hurt? Like, I don't understand. It makes me -

Hank: [laughs] Customer service.

Gaby: -furious. It makes me so mad. It's a hot beverage! Why are you putting it in a- they put it in a glass cup! I've seen it, Hank. It's real. And it- [both laugh] 

Hank: It's just basically like putting your hand straight into the coffee. 

Gaby: [laughing] It has happened! 

Hank: Like, that's what they're asking you to do. 

Gaby: Yeah. It has happened to me. Why? 

Hank: No it's terrible. That's awful. You know, when I saw this question I was like, "you know, I kind of feel like I've seen like a ceramic mug, that I would call a mug, that doesn't have a handle."

Gaby: Yeah.

Hank: Because it's got like those thick mug walls and it's mug shaped but it doesn't- and so I googled it, and they're called "mugs without handles".

Gaby: That's it?

Hank: That's what they're called. There's no special name. You can go, if you search for like "mugs without handles" it's just like, "Mugs without handles! Available at these places. For minimalist design nuts, these mugs don't have handles!"

Gaby: Oh, minimalists! Oh, [laughs]-

Hank: "Here on-" yeah. Minimalists, "I don't want a handle on my mug. I want to be in pain. This is my minimalism-"

Gaby: "I live in a tiny house, and every inch counts." [laughs]

Hank: [laughing] "So my mugs don't have handles. They're also very small. I mean you'd just have a little, I mean a tiny, I don't, like, look, I can't even have a coffee. It's just espresso. We don't have space for coffee." 

Gaby: If you go to someone's house and they hand you a mug without a handle, call the police. They are a murderer. [laughs]

Hank: [laughing] Just throw it on the ground. Like Thor in the Thor movie. And then walk out and say, "I won't have another." And then- or just go to all their mugs and break them all, and say, "More mugs better than this are available at"

Gaby: I mean, this is just- 

Hank: "with handles!".

 (48:00) to (50:00)

Gaby: Useless! Useless. I mean, I don't know if we solved this person's- they're called useless. Next question. 

Hank: [laughs] Ok, we're going to finish off with a question from Anonymous. "Dear Hank and Gaby, So I've made quite a mess of my sexuality. When I was hitting puberty, around 13 years of age or so I was very certain that I was a lesbian. I dated a girl in secret when I was 15. Both parties' parents found out. Our lives turned into an HBO special, you know the drill. My parents weren't cool with it, and one thing my mom said was, 'If you're bi, please just try to be straight.' She said this with the best intentions, but it's put me in a fun situation because I spent years trying to convince myself I'm straight. I've dated several boys, and it wasn't until I had a sexual encounter with one of these boys that I felt 100% almost magnetic repulsion sort of feeling of 'no, this is incorrect and icky and please don't do this,' that I realized that I'm super duper gay. So now I'm almost 23, and I'm in the situation of finding on the outside men and women completely equally attractive, but being 100% not interested in anything involving men. How do I come out to my parents and explain to them without seeming like I have a choice to date men still. I know asking two straight guys might not be the best choice but I'm desperate and looking for any dubious advice anywhere I can find it." Hey I have great news for you, Anonymous. 

Gaby: [laughs] I have, yeah, you've come to the right place. Hello. I don't know if the people listening know that I'm a bi- I'll just say that I'm a cis bisexual woman so that people know my credentials. Um [both laugh]-

Hank: Where's your degree from in bi studies? 

Gaby: It's from the Kristen Stewart school of bisexuality.

Hank: [laughs] 

Gaby: I have a Master's degree in threesomes. Ok, so um-

Hank: [laughs] 

 (50:00) to (52:00)

Gaby: [laughs] I have a Master's degree in dating couples. Ok so basically you live in a patriarchal society, in a hetero-normative society that teaches you that the right thing to do is to be straight, and no one is immune to it and no one is, like, strong enough usually to shrug all that off, which is why there's so many- there's so much higher rates of suicide and depression in particularly bisexual but also all kinds of queer people. And so your mom- I don't know if best intentions was the right way to put that because, although I think you're trying to say that she was sort of like, "I just want you to have an easier life."

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: "And I don't want you to-" 'cause I, actually I just was hanging out with two friends of mine. One is a lesbian, one is an immigrant. And I was like, "who do you think has it worse between the three of us?" joking. And without missing a beat they were both like, "you do." So being bi is tough. And I think that you could maybe just dumb it down for your parents? Like, I think you could just say like, "look, I'm gay." 'Cause if you don't want to date men, maybe it's not worth trying to explain to them that like, sexuality is fluid and that like a lot of times if you're- 'cause like, bisexuality has a lot to do with desire versus action in my mind. So if you- there are some people who do bisexual acts sexually, but they're not, they don't identify as bisexual because they don't desire to be romantic with men and women and so there's this split between like, you know you can be like, hetero-romantic bisexual. Or like, homo-romantic bisexual. And it sounds like you think, you can see that they're both attractive, but you're only romantically interested in women, and sounds like sexually interested in women. So I think it might be because they're from a different generation and because it seems like they don't really get it? 

 (52:00) to (54:00)

Gaby: You might be interested in just distilling it down for them and being like, look I'm a lesbian. And maybe that's not like the whole truth to you, but it's also the easiest way to get them off your back, since- like, my parents are sort of weirdos and are like, open to a lot of stuff so I feel like I could sit them down and explain this type of thing. But most baby boomers I'm assuming are your parents? Are not- I don't know, you just have to know who your parents are and if they're the type that need things to be black and white then for your own sanity maybe just present it that way. 

Hank: Mmhmm. 

Gaby: I mean, I also think the whole thing of, like, "if you're bi, just please try to be straight." It's like, it's not a choice- it's not a choice for who your are attracted to and who you fall in love with. So it's like, to be like, if you're super into this woman and they're like, "can you just choose to be straight?", it's like you're not going to be like, "oh yeah, let me just put that on the back burner and give the old straight Tinder a go." 

Hank: Mmhmm. 

Gaby: Which, by the way, is a nightmare place. Never go on straight Tinder. [both laugh] It's horrendous. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's interesting because there was this interview with Cynthia Nixon where she was talking about how people assume she's a lesbian and she was like, "No, I'm more bisexual, but I've just decided that dating women is better." And everyone lost their minds and was like, "you're saying that being a lesbian is a choice- blah blah blah." But like, I was sort of, like, yeah, but if you are like, I'm attracted to both but I just am only romantically interested in this one particular situation, then that's, you can define that however you want do define that. I don't think that's- I don't know, I've met men who are like, "yeah I'm straight. I mean I've like, done stuff with dudes, but I only want to date women." And I'm like, then say that you're straight and other men that have said that same thing have said that they identify as bi. It's really very- like, whatever feels right rolling off your tongue about yourself. 

 (54:00) to (56:00)

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: But I also think to your parents you've got to just get them off your back and distill it I think. 

Hank: Yeah, give them a thing that is easy enough to process.

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: Yeah.

Gaby: And I mean, like, I don't know if you're worried that they're going to be like, "but you dated all those dudes, so," 'cause then you can just be like, I didn't-

Hank: 'Cause no homosexual person has ever had a heterosexual relationship ever.

Gaby: Right. You can just be like, even now, that's your ammo. You can go, "I gave it a shot. Not for me." 

Hank: [laughs] "I really tried. I did it a bunch." 

Gaby: Yeah. "I really tried-" Oh my god, that would be so funny, "I really tried, I [bleeped] so many dudes. Not for me." [both laugh] 

Hank: "Mom, I've got to tell you. I just-" 

Gaby: Was that-

Hank: "I mean I tried. I tried it with every guy I could try. And just, none of them worked."

Gaby: "Oh, I tried it all the ways." Like, you just like give them a real- and they're so upset. You're like, "was that not what you meant?" 

Hank: [laughing] Oh god. [both laugh] Oh. Alright, Well. It is now time for the new from Mars and AFC Wimbledon. The new from Mars- I'll go first. 

Gaby: Mmhmm. 

Hank: Is that there's now a game that was designed in partnership with NASA and if you have a HTC Vive or any of the other modern VR devices, you can go to Mars yourself. At home. In your little Vive space. If you have one of those. I don't. So I have not been able to try this. But the basic idea is that you land yourself on Mars and this isn't just a landscape that looks like Mars, it's taken from data from the MSO orbiter and it's basically an area of Mars that actually exists. 

 (56:00) to (58:00)

Hank: You land on it, you can go over to your little habitation module, you can drive your little rover around, you can do soil and rock collections, and then once you do that you open up new areas of the map and you get to see other cool areas of the planet, and basically you just get to hang out on the surface of Mars, which no actual human is going to get to do for quite a long time, hopefully before 2028, but for quite a long time. And uh, yeah. And I would like to do it but I don't have any VR gear. So if anybody gets the chance to play Mars 2030, please tell me how it goes. 

Gaby: Are you- would you go? I guess not because you have a baby. 

Hank: Yeah.

Gaby: But if they were like, you go, go live on Mars now. You would be like, nah? 

Hank: I mean, I have a friend who has several children and he's super, like trying, he's actively trying to become an astronaut. And I'm like, (?~56:53) I don't know that I would do that. You know his wife-

Gaby: To live on Mars? He wants to live on Mars? 

Hank: No, no. He wants to be an astronaut. 

Gaby: Oh.

Hank: Which, to me, it's like, it's dangerous. It's a very dangerous job. 

Gaby: Yeah. 

Hank: But no, I don't think he wants to go live on Mars. I would not go live on Mars. There's a bunch of reasons why I wouldn't go live on Mars. I used to want to go live on Mars, but that changed as I got older and more motion sick. 

Gaby: [laughs] Yeah, and you saw The Martian and you were like, "Ugh, growing potatoes for so long." 

Hank: [laughs] This is-

Gaby: Just like half the movie-

Hank: -a weird action movie. [both laugh] So what's the news from from AFC Wimbledon, Gaby? 

Gaby: Oh, well. [clears throat] As you know our lead starter, Mark Harrington, he has been really sick. And so, he's had the flu. So he's been out of several games. 

Hank: [laughs] 

Gaby: And that means that our second starter, this guy, his name is Carl um, [Hank laughs] Ranks. He's been playing. And, you know, he hasn't really had a chance to shine. 

 (58:00) to (1:00:00)

Hank: Mmhmm.

Gaby: But now, he scored three goals in the last-

Hank: Oh!

Gaby: Uh, game. So now-

Hank: Whoah. Hat trick. 

Gaby: everyone's like, yeah. So now everyone's like, well maybe we don't even need Mark Harrington. 

Hank: [laughs] 

Gaby: Maybe we just need Carl Ranks. And Mark Harrington's pissed, I heard that gossip in the locker room. That he's real mad. So he might be traded to a totally different team. And his best friend is on AFC Wimbledon and his best friend is um, Lisa Simpson, not related to the Simpsons.

Hank: [laughs] 

Gaby: And so she's like, well if he goes then I'm going to go, but that's really awful, because she's our best goalkeeper. So my thoughts are maybe that once Mark Harrington's better they should just let him - the coach, whose name is uh, Kate Moss-

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: She should let- [laughs] she should let, maybe have them both play. Like a double, a double starter. Which I know hasn't been done since the 1940s, I know no team has had a double starter since the 1940s ok, I get it. But I think in my- and my opinion's controversial, I think we should do it. And that's all the news from AFC Wimbledon! A real team that exists. 

Hank: [claps] 

Gaby: [laughs]

Hank: Good, good. John will be back next week with real news from AFC Wimbledon. He'll catch everybody up. Hey, Gaby! 

Gaby: Yeah, let me know if they do that double starter. Ok, what? 

Hank: I'll be really interested I'll ask John directly if they do the double starter or not, and he will be really interested to tell me the answer. Gaby, what did we learn today? 

Gaby: What did we learn? We learned that you should get a forearm tattoo of just text because that would be super sexy. We also learned-

Hank: Alright. [laughs]

Gaby: -that all of your faves are problematic and have written erotica. We also learned-[both laugh] that you're-

Hank: I forgot about the Shel Silverstein erotica.

 (1:00:00) to (1:02:00)

Gaby: Oh yeah.

Hank: Good mind. 

Gaby: We also learned that you're a [bleeped] creep who calls people at their hotel rooms? 

Hank: [laughs] Just the one time and I was a little boy! I was like twelve. 

Gaby: [laughing] We also- who did you call? 

Hank: The lead singer of They Might Be Giants. John Linnell. 

Gaby: Oh! Oh, he's nice. What did- uh, we learned the meaning of the word Lothario. We learned-

Hank: I did. You already knew. 

Gaby: I already knew.

Hank: And I also learned the meaning of the word epistolary, which is in reference to Gaby's new book. 

Gaby: Yes, thank you for helping me to really just promo the new book. Please oh please-

Hank: Got to hit it harder. [laughs]

Gaby: Preorder it. Preorder it, please. And-

Hank: What's it called? Did you tell us what it was called? 

Gaby: Yes! It's called I Hate Everyone But You

Hank: Ok. You did say that.

Gaby: Mmhmm.

Hank: But I wanted you to say it again. 

Gaby: You're so good at this, please help me. Ok, and we learned don't do the work for your coworkers.

Hank: That's right. Good.

Gaby: Is that it? Oh and-

Hank: Yes, we learned all those things- wait, we learned more. What else did we learn?

Gaby: Lie to your parents so you can have gay sex. That's it! That's all for-[both laugh]

Hank: Alright, in addition to promoing Everything I Hate About You, we also, there's a game that I'm developing that I have developed with some friends available on Kickstarter, it's called Rolf. It's really fun. You can watch on Hankschannel me playing it. Which is my YouTube channel that no one knows about. It's just me. And you can find out more about that. We'd love it if you check it out, maybe see if you want to back it on Kickstarter? [outro music plays] And also I will be in Australia for VidCon Australia September 9th and 10th, if you are interested in coming to see me. John won't be there, so it'll be just like this podcast, except without Gaby either. You aren't coming are you? 

Gaby: No, but I'm going to PodCon, your other thing.

Hank: Oh yeah, also PodCon is still a thing and PodCon tickets are available again if you didn't get them during the Indiegogo but want to get them now. 

 (1:02:00) to (1:02:52)

Hank: And we'll be talking more about PodCon as it approaches. It's coming up in December, in Seattle. So I'm excited to see you at PodCon, Gaby. Thank you for hanging out, and -

Gaby: Yeah!

Hank: You're great!

Gaby: Thank you for being a guest, thank you for being a guest on my new sexy podcast Dear Gaby

Hank: [laughs]

Gaby: All we do is curse and talk about your idols who wrote erotica. 

Hank: This podcast, Dear Gaby, is edited by Nicholas Jenkins. Our producers are Rosianna Halse Rojas and Sheridan Gibson. Our social media manager is Victoria Bongiorno, the music is by the great Gunnarolla. If you would like to email us you can email us at And as they say in our hometown-

Hank and Gaby together: Don't Forget to be Awesome. 

[music ends]