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In this episode, Chelsea talks to post-doctoral fellow Sam Katz about growing up in a Hasidic community in Brooklyn, life after leaving an Orthodox religion, and the financial realities of the world he was never raised to face.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Financial Confessions, with me, your host, co-founder, and CEO of The Financial Diet and person who loves to talk about money, Chelsea Fagan.

Today, I have an interview guest who is a bit of a departure from the kinds of people that we normally speak to because often we talk about building up your financial life from a place of stability or at least from some kind of financial foundation. But there are a lot of people in the world who come into adulthood basically from zero, not just in terms of savings but in terms of their entire financial education.

And one of the context in which people have all kinds of financial and professional struggles that most of us would probably never be aware of are people who come from very insular communities. A lot of the times those might be religious communities. But as we all know if we like watching documentaries like I do, it can be any kind of thing, although a lot of them tend to be religious.

Do we count NXIVM is religious? What was NXIVM? Whatever NXIVM was, those people seriously needed a lot of financial help leaving.

But all of that is to say, when you leave any kind of insular community, every element of the financial and professional world is something to be learned. Several years ago, I happened to see an interview on YouTube. I honestly have no idea how it ended up in my algorithm, it was just there one day.

And I watched it and I found it super compelling. And it actually featured an interview with my upcoming guest, talking about how he left his community. He happened to leave the Hasidic community in Borough Park, Brooklyn.

Which is, I don't know how familiar you guys are with New York. But I live in Manhattan, although I used to live in Williamsburg, so I lived in Brooklyn as well. But another borough here in New York.

Left at the age of 18 and has now fairly recently completed his PhD in immunology and lives in the DC area. So completely changed his life from how he was raised. But obviously a huge part of that journey was one of discovery and I can only imagine challenges entering the secular world, and the world of everyone kind of having to hustle to make that dollar.

So I wanted to talk to him for a particularly interesting conversation on leaving a community and a financial perspective. And he was gracious enough to grant me that interview. So without further ado, my guest, Sam Katz.

Hello, Sam. Hey, Chelsea. I'm excited for this.

I have had the chance, and I get asked to talk about this, but never from this angle. So it even got me reflecting on it, because I've never looked at it purely through that lens. So I'm interested in what I'm going to say too.

Yeah, me too. Part of the reason I really wanted to speak to you-- and full disclosure, we're also looking to speak with another person, a woman from another community. Because I do think gender probably plays huge roles, especially in communities that are religious in nature.

But I think one of the things that always strikes me, because I watch basically any documentary or fictionalized series about this sort of situation, I completely devour. And one of the things that always strikes me that I feel like never really gets addressed is how much finances are part of what keep people in communities and what make it very, very difficult to leave. And I feel like that very rarely gets addressed, because I think generally in media we don't look a lot at the financial or class aspect of any given situation.

So can you talk to us first a little bit about how you came to leave your community? And what role, just kind of top level, finances played in that. Yeah, so as you mentioned, I grew up in the traditional Hasidic community.

And what people always find interesting when I tell them this story is always when we talk about education I did or didn't get. And they always find it surprising that boys don't get a general education, or what you might call a secular education and girls do. And I think people associate religious insular communities with less education for girls.

But the reason it is that way in the Hasidic community is the expectation is that men will stay studying god's word and serve god through maintaining kind of a full schedule of religious activity. While the women will go out in the world and often be the breadwinners. I mean, that became a little less common the last couple of years and depends between families.

But the women are really kind of expected that they're going to go to work in addition to having seven to eight kids and raising them. So the girls, they take their Regents exam, which I believe is the New York exam, whereas boys don't get any that. Girls speak English amongst themselves, whereas boys speak Yiddish amongst themselves and girls speak Yiddish when they speak to men.

So from the start, you already kind of get a sense of how you are expected in the kind of financial thinking. But I grew up in that style. I attended yeshivas my whole life.

Around age 10, my parents separated, which was very uncommon in the community back then. It's gotten slightly more common. It's still pretty uncommon.

But it was pretty uncommon back then. And one of the ways in which you kind of stay in check within the community is you will be assigned a match by a matchmaker. And the way the matchmaking works is what I like call a blemish calculator.

Where they decide how many blemishes your family has and you can only get of equal or lesser value. And you don't want to do anything bad when you're young. Because let's say if you're a boy and you were caught one day when you should be studying out having fun, or hanging out in a park, they're like, oh, there's rumors that he's not as serious.

And that really affects you for your life because the better student you are, the richer of a father-in-law you get. Because if you're a good student, you get a father-in-law who will support you for the rest of, well, if you're a great student, the rest of your life. Often nowadays it will be 10 years or five years that you can study without having to worry about it.

And maybe they'll cover your apartment for a while. So that really keeps you in check, because why take the risk? It'll really ruin it for you.

But then when my parents separated, I was already damaged goods because I'm considered a broken family. So you can only get someone else from either a broken family or somebody with a disability, or that's kind of the way it works. So that check on my life kind of fell away.

But I was still very devoutly religious, following the rules. My father's a rabbi and my mother's father's a rabbi. That was the path I was going to go in.

And my parents' divorce was quite messy for, as many divorces are, mostly financial reasons. But I think the finances were just a way to express the emotional hurt and anger. So that was a pretty messy divorce.

And then I stayed growing up with my mom and my two sisters. And my mother was, even for the community we grew up in, we were considered quite on the lower financial end. I would say on the poorer side.

We were in a one bedroom, four people. So later we had to move. We couldn't afford within the community, so we lived right on the border.

So literally the other side of the tracks where there's an above ground one. And things were very tough at home. And because of the religious setting, even though there were two people older than me in the household, I had to lead a lot of the things, the Sabbath meal and everything.

So that kind of put a lot on me. And I needed an escape. And the Brooklyn Public Library was right outside where we lived.

Because there wasn't one inside the community, there was just one right outside. And because I lived so far I was like, I can go there. So I started bettering my English going there.

I mean, we had school from 7:00 in the morning to 9:00 at night. So the only day you can go is Friday, because you finish early for the Sabbath. So I would go there.

I got Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. You know, must have been, like, 15. Read it with a dictionary, figured stuff out.

And I wasn't going to touch any of the non-kosher books or anything. But I mostly just kept the children's books. And then once my English got better I thought, well, science is bad, so I'm not going to look at any of those stuff.

But I want to be a rabbi, psychology sounds relatable. So I started reading a lot about that. I had no clue about Freud or where any of those things can go.

And I read a lot of stuff without knowing anything of what they were talking about. But that became kind of a lifeline as things were kind of tough at home. And I-- just trying to decide on the level of detail to give.

But pretty soon I ended up becoming more curious about the world. And slowly my faith kind of crumbled. At around age 16 I was given the offer to go study in Israel at a very competitive yeshiva.

Usually you go at around 18. And if you study in Israel for a while that raises your marriage stock so I thought it was worth it. When there I really lost all my kind of faith.

I became very interested in science, very interested in reading, and began dreaming of a life in college. And would sneak out on the internet cafes and that kind of thing. And realized I need the GED, which is the equivalency degree.

So I told my family I wanted to leave. They said absolutely not, so I was stuck there. And that was a little bit of a saga.

But then at 18 I just said, I'm coming home. So I came home to visit for the holiday of Passover and just said, I'm not going back. So that's pretty much when I left it.

I can't say I thought about money much at that time. Most of the things I was using were public resources. Libraries, I was studying for the GED in libraries, using their stuff.

And I was still what we would call at that time, living the double life. Which is you're still on the outside look you're part of the community, but secretly you're not. So I was still dressed the proper way, so I could still live at home.

And I was basically just living, I guess, you can call it the lie or the compromise. So yeah, I did that and I ended up reaching out-- this is a sidetrack. But in New York, in order to get your equivalency degree, you need a discharge letter from the last high school you attended.

But I didn't exist in the Department of Education. Because the Department of Education in New York just looks the other way and just pretends it doesn't exist, kind of like with the polygamy in Utah or other sign of contexts. So I couldn't get a letter.

So I found this organization called The Door, which is a youth center. And they have children of unresolved immigration statuses or children of homelessness. And if you get into that program, you can take the test through them.

So I went there and I took the test through them. I mean, that was a very real culture shock. In order to get the GED there, you had to have sex ed, conflict resolution, know your rights, and all of these other things which was really a culture shock.

But yeah, they really helped me. They gave me support for like metro cards and those kinds of things. And then helped me with my SATs.

And then I went to college. So that more or less is the path. I don't know how much that covers.

And when you went to college when you left your community, how did you support yourself? Yeah, so I went to a public university. I went to Stony Brook.

And there is an organization in New York called Footsteps, which supports people who left the community. And they gave me a scholarship. I did FAFSA and all of that and I had it.

And then I had a couple of loans. My family was still giving me $100 a month. So that was kind of the little change.

But before I went to college, I worked for a year. So in between getting my GED until going to college, I worked in animal husbandry, which is running animal facilities and research centers. So we're getting a lot of mice and getting really good at telling at a really early stage whether the mouse is male or female.

Because you need a lot of male mice in X chromosomal research, but anyway. So I was basically just, I worked there for a year. And I was still living at home because I still had the whole religious look and everything.

So I saved all that money and that kind of kept me for about a year while I was in college. And the rest was loans. So during that time, there was, sounds like a several year period, where your family was aware that you were no longer religious but they let you live in their house as long as you kept looking a certain way?

Yeah, I mean, I was quite lucky. There was never a kind of hard line of, like, we're going to disown you. I don't think that ever was on the table for me.

And I think it's less common than a lot of old Yiddish novels have. And to be frank, a lot of the TV and movies that are being made up. I think it's easier to tell the story of a clean cut.

And I think for a lot of-- and me and my friends who have similar experience talk a lot about it. What's more often happening is more of a complicated kind of dance you have with your family of some parts are like, don't ask, don't tell. Some parts are, you're accepted.

Some part is a third rail and you don't touch. And I think that is more common what happens, at least with my group of people that I've gotten to know. And that kind of happened with me.

I told them that I want to go to college but never had the conversation about my religiosity. Word came back to them about some of the things I was doing from some people who we're hearing. But I think, this is a bit more of a difficult topic but I'll try to add some levity to it.

But my mom is a strong person of faith. So she doesn't think of me as somebody who is not religious. She thinks of me as someone who's temporarily not religious, like I will come back.

So that kind of creates a certain connection. And I was also deciding how much financial connection I wanted to have. Because in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm going to disappoint them.

Because I'm not coming back. And to be honest, I didn't have this conversation with my mother until my weekend before leaving for college. Because I was going to cut off the payouts, the side curls you have.

And that's, like, a hard cut. And that was one of the most direct conversations we've had. But in my mom's mind, and this is actually funny.

A year ago I showed her an episode of Queer Eye. And that was very new to her. She found Jonathan Van Ness very, very fascinating.

So at some point, and I'm straight, and I asked her, I was like, Mom, would you rather I was religious but I was gay. Or if I'm straight but I'm not religious as now. And I teased her because, I have two sisters, I was like, Mom, you have three son-in-laws.

But then she thought about it for a minute. And then she says, you know, you are now. Because if you were gay and religious, I couldn't hope that you would change.

But now, I think you still can come back. Which is weirdly progressive and weirdly made me sad that that's kind of-- so I think that kind of dynamic, it's never been a real hard cut with my family. But you always feel like you're on borrowed time before less deniability is possible.

So for the first year that I was working in animal husbandry, because I still had to look, still had everything, I'm sure they had a sense I wasn't as religious as it seemed. But I think the hope was-- I remember when I came back from Israel, I came back to visit for the holiday. And I was surprised that my mom was totally fine.

I expected to see her devastated. And it wasn't until the date when all the boys who were supposed to go back went back that I wasn't that she started responding. Because up to that point, she had faith that I would be on the plane.

So I think that kind of hope, and faith, and religiosity makes you have a weird tie with your family. So while I was there, I had, interestingly, my mom would want to give me money to, like, food. Because she thought that's a bigger chance that I'd eat kosher.

But I kind of pushed that a little bit. But by the time I went to college, I think it was out in the open. And then I was pretty much kind of just-- I was honestly figuring it out.

I didn't know much about college finances or any of those things. But I was kind of winging it. Yeah, it's funny.

I feel, I think, most compelled by the topic of insular communities. I'm actually going to blur as many details as they possibly can here. But have a family member who was a part of an insular community for a while, was actually non-religious.

OK. Yeah, and it was not a great experience for the rest of us. Let me say that much.

But what was super fascinating about it to me, and I think that was partially what kind of kicked off my interest in it, was how quickly the sort of in-group versus out-group dynamic is used to really kind of be a source of power and control. And how often money is tied up with that, whether it's only being able to seek employment within a community or relying on others in the community for your financial sustainability. But there's also a dynamic that what you were just talking about kind of makes me think of, which is a sort of separation from the rest of the world based on the things that you start to do and what you start to believe.

And for an example, I don't have the data on me at this moment. But I've been reading a lot lately about how in a community like the United States that's increasingly politically polarized, extremist groups of all kinds tend to become more popular. And I feel like what we're seeing now is this big push towards, I consider myself a member of sort of the progressive wing of politics, a push towards really cutting off people who are not in agreement with that sort of ideological orthodoxy.

You mentioned, of course, your mom having let's just say not perfectly woke views on gay people, which is not a surprise, given her background. But there are a lot of people, I think especially more and more today, who would encourage you to not have a relationship with her because of all of these things that she believes. And I worry that that tends to become almost a self-perpetuating cycle that increases people heading towards isolating themselves.

Yeah, absolutely. Like, the thing I always say, I grew up every day thanking god that I am not a Gentile, so not a non-Jew, not a slave, and not a woman. And then I am who I am today.

So you have to have faith in people's capacity to change. And I see it even now. So when I made my transition, and that was around 2008.

I don't know if you ever have that moment where you, like, discover something and you're into something. I feel like that's probably what showing up at Woodstock felt like. And then you realize that was the popular thing to do then, and you kind of feel a little less special.

So I think when I was kind of questioning my faith was when the new atheists were very popular in publishing. So, like, Richard Dawkins wrote The God Delusion, Christopher Hitchens wrote God is Not Great. Sam Harris wrote Letter to a Christian Nation.

And they were kind of the big thinkers. And I'll be honest, their books had a big impact on me. But then they kind of shifted.

And now kind of the common, I don't want to guess the label, but they're a bit more on the a quarter Peterson, of Jordan Peterson of the Jordan Peterson scale, I think. And I see it now with people who are questioning the faith that I grew up in, who I'm very close friends with. And a lot of them are in the left woke side, who kind of interpret their skepticism and the cynicism that it took them to reject their faith to a cynicism to reject new ideas or new identities, particularly when it comes to transgender issues seems to be the hot rod thing.

And I'm friends with a lot of them, and I often question it. You know, should I call them out? And I inform them of my opinion.

If it's someone I don't have a connection with, it's one thing, if it's a stranger on the internet, I suppose. But I just can't justify rejecting someone for their-- obviously there are beliefs I can't stand by. But I think our beliefs are in flux.

And I don't know, our only hope is community. I mean, I always think when I see people who go through this experience of questioning their faith. And then it ends up translating into a rejection of big ideas, kind of this fetishization of Westernized secularism of the Enlightenment era, which was good.

But it's not the only good in the world. And it ended up turning into that. But for the grace of god or-- that could have been me.

So I always have a soft spot for people who are working through their thought processes. I'll be honest, I am friends with people who say things that honestly make me cringe. I mean, I'm in the science space.

So you get a lot of those kind of, I don't know what to call them, they're basically eugenicists. But they like talking about, we need to talk about influence on IQ and genetics. And it's terrifying, because I always tell my scientific friends, I mean, our role as scientists in the history of eugenics is something we really need to own.

And you'll hear it seep in every now and then. And I just can't become the person who says, well, I can't talk to you if you believe that way. I have the image of the people who said that to me.

So yeah, I'm with you on that one. There's a lot to unpack there, quite honestly. I mean, the thing about the new atheists.

I mean, talk about like, they could have just stayed playing the hits. But I feel like they went way, way too far into the, like-- yeah, I think most fundamentalist religions probably are a net negative to communities, especially women. But does that mean that the answer is demonizing, for example, billions of Muslims?

I feel like that's clearly not the answer. But it's interesting when it comes to sort of excommunicating people who don't subscribe to a particular sociopolitical orthodoxy. This is something I feel very strongly about.

And again, kind of to be as delicate as possible, if you've ever had a loved one or a family member who has been a part of a very radical community, whether that's religious, political, or even just sort of secular but kooky as hell, as some of them are, you really quickly understand that if you completely cut them off, or you shame them, or you mock and ridicule them, you are doing exactly what the extremists or their community want you to be doing, right? You're really reinforcing this view that they're fed, which is that there's us and there's everyone else. And everyone else is dangerous and bad, and they hate you already, so why would you want to play into them?

They'll never truly accept you. And the only answer is to, obviously you can kind of stand firm in the things that are important not to waver on ethically. You can rebut, you can say how you feel.

But you have to do it with empathy. And you have to keep a door open to them being able to change their mind, which is humiliating and devastating for people to say, I was wrong. To say, I shouldn't have felt this way, or I at least shouldn't have acted the way I did.

And we see it now. I think most people are most kind of aware of it right now with politics. Because there are a lot of politics, I feel like especially in sort of mainstream progressive discourse we've sort of drawn a line under a certain point on the chart.

And we're like, anyone who's below this, fuck them, basically. They can go to hell, and there's no room for redemption. And obviously a lot of our sort of, I hate this word, but the kind of cancellation and the problematic discourse and all of that feeds into it.

But I really don't think a lot of people realize just how close political radicalization is to a lot of other types of radicalization. And how much otherizing and sort of driving people out plays exactly into the hands of the worst actors. Yeah, and you know, the sad thing is when I reflect on the community I came from and what led to them being such a community, and my interpretation, and I am certainly not a scientific anthropologist.

One of my pet peeves, I almost feel like this is a sidetrack. But I always like when you become a medical doctor you have to make the oath, do no harm. And I feel like PhD's should have to say, I will never claim my PhD title unless it's exactly the topic for which I got it from.

So I definitely don't want to claim any expertise in something outside my field. But the community I came from was built after the Holocaust, built after World War II. And I always say, if you want to understand any Jewish community, just look at what they blame the Holocaust on.

So if you think of the Israeli Zionist one, they were like, we didn't have an army. We relied on others. We can never be as vulnerable.

So they made a state, they made an army. And if you look at the Americanized assimilated one they said, the reason this happened was we stood out too much. We were too weird, too different.

Let's change our names, assimilate. It won't happen again. And the community I came from said, you can never again trust the outside.

You can never again trust the outside world. They're utterly dangerous to you. And that response build us that community.

And now what happened as a defense mechanism is now something that not only encourages distancing and othering and gaps between other people, but it really breaks families and breaks all these kinds of relationships. So I do kind of get that view on the outside. And I always wonder, am I overly cautious on it?

Because a lot of the language of, if you think like this, you have no place here. And it's happened to me. I got that growing up.

But on the other hand, where is the line? Something that happened in the community I grew up in, when I grew up, internet was accessed through a desktop, which isn't that long ago. So they really were able to control access to the internet.

In order to attend school you had to sign that you don't have a computer at home. So as the internet came up, there was no education on how to use it, or what are the different sources, what is the hierarchy of information. And then smartphones came and they just couldn't stand the control of it.

So now everybody has WhatsApp. Everybody has internet on their phone. But without that kind of breaking in of how the internet works, and what is different information sources, it's made the community become almost one that I don't even recognize.

And they some reason became very aligned with right wing politics. This actually, and a little bit of a financial side of it. We were generally known to vote Democrat.

Because the community really survives on government funding. So whether it is food stamps, whether it's section 8 for housing, whether it's weird ways of getting around the government supporting the schools, even though the schools don't really follow the rules. So they generally vote Democrat.

And that was true as I was growing up. And in the last couple of years, and if you look at maps of the general election, it really became red. And right wing radio somehow got in.

And my theory about it is that the kind of bombastic, assertive talking is very similar to the kind of fire and brimstone religious sermons. So I think it's an easier leap than a very soft-talking NPR voice to put it together. But it's definitely there.

And I remember one of the moments when I realized the community has changed when right after the George Zimmerman trial, which was on a Saturday. I was visiting family. I was at an uncle's home and it the Sabbath, so they couldn't get the news.

And then the Sabbath ended at nightfall and they saw that Zimmerman was, I don't want to say exonerated, found not guilty, I suppose. And there was, like, celebration. And I was like, where did that come from?

So I think in a weird way, the separation that that community felt from the world, and the separation that a lot of certain political thinking is feeling right now is meshing in a certain way. And I don't like being dramatic, but it is worrying. And I don't know the answer.

Me still being friendly to someone changes it, but. Yeah, I mean, there are no easy answers. And I mean, not to take it back to capitalism, which is usually sort of the end of the line of each of these episodes.

But as we see quality of life diminish for the middle class, as we see people become more and more alienated from the fruits of their productivity, and people have to struggle harder and harder to live a good life, and people feel more and more economically marginalized, extremist groups of any kind are going to have an appeal. And moreover, the right wing evangelical radio, which is definitely not new. Although I think has a new kind of pervasiveness with the internet.

It offers really simple and satisfying answers to really complicated problems. And that's going to appeal to everyone. But in terms of the finances of it, I'm curious how you view finances as being a tool of control and of conformity in communities like yours.

Yeah, so one of the ways in which I was incredibly lucky, which is I left right at 18. So at 18 they start talking for you to getting a match. They want to find a matchmaker to pair you up.

And I already knew I was out. I told them, don't do it. It'll cause embarrassment.

There's no way I'm going for it. One of the fastest ways, and they want you to get married fast. Because once you're married fast, you have big financial responsibilities.

And your only way to meet them is through help with a community, because you have no resume. You have no skills. I mean, I don't want to undermine, the what, studying Talmud and the thinking it makes you develop.

But it's not the labor market we are in. Not a lot of people asking the laws of an ox killing a bull in the 14th century. So there's something transferable about it, but not enough.

And they really want you to get married and stay with the community. And so many people that leave say to me, I have at this point three to four kids. By the time you realize you want to leave, the only way I can stay is by working within the community, working through people who know me.

So if any of you live in New York, a very popular place where you see a lot of Hasidic people in Manhattan is being BNH Photo. BNH Photo was started by Hasidic man from the sect that I was from. His nephew was my study partner.

And he hires Hasidic men, women as well. If you pay attention, he usually hires women in accounting and offices and usually men in the sales force. But he sprinkles them occasionally for the HR purposes.

But they hire Hasidic men without those skills. But you've got to be on the in to get that. It's not going to work any other way.

So there's these little built up. A lot of Jewish food processing plants will hire you. That's a way people do business.

And there's ways where people will just lift you up. And somebody who is in the real estate business will tell you, I'll give you something to start. But you leave, you're out.

And I've had a lot of people who I've worked with who have reached out to me. And the biggest block is, it's not just that I don't have any money to leave. I have no skills to leave.

So I don't have anything that I can take out there that will help me float. And I remember when I was 18 and I told my family, that's it, I'm not going back. My grandfather pulled me into his study and he said, OK, after arguing he says, I will support you.

Just get married first. Because once they have you there, they have you on lock. And they really want that.

And it's known in the community, if you start showing signs of withering or questioning, they marry you off fast. And you're also connected to someone. But your finances become really complicated and completely intertwined in the community.

And I think for women, it's a bit different to leave the community. Because I mean, they do have a certain set of skills, but their finances and their financial things are tied up with the men in their life and their families. And there's various other blockades that I can't speak authoritatively about.

But for men, I mean, you're only being hired by somebody either giving you something, in which case you're indebted to them. So maybe your father gives you some starting money to flip houses or start a, very common now is Amazon businesses. Because you can keep your own schedule and nobody sees you.

You don't interact. So as I was going through college, to support myself I worked a lot of different jobs. And even I used the Hasidic network to get jobs.

So I had a lot of different various jobs within the Hasidic community. And for a year after college, I worked in the plush toy industry. And I worked for these two Hasidic men who started selling plush toys on Amazon and then wanted to build a website.

And I needed a job, and that was around. And I remember sitting there one time in May. And the guy tells me, are there graduations now?

And I said, yes. Oh, a lot of people are ordering bears. And then one time, this was a 2014, 2015 said, what is Jurassic Park?

Because the supplier said to stock up on dinosaur stuff. So you jump into a lot of businesses, and you get certain help. And the one thing I will speak to that the community gives.

And I think it gives them uniquely to men, I don't think it gives it to women. Which is a confidence that the world isn't as complicated as it looks. You're told the most complicated thing is to Talmud.

That's your study, that god chose you to study. And the world is designed. There are women in your life, so they will do your laundry and prepare your food so you can study.

There are non-Jewish people and they're all around her. So you study god's word. And that's the most complicated thing in the world.

So everything else can be too complicated. And it's something I've noticed is a bit of a secret to success in that community, when they do try to go into business, is they're just not very scared of things. Like if I wanted to start a plush toy company, I would do a ton of research about whether toys are growing, whether they're overtaken now by digital, or what have you.

And they were like, yeah, I guess we'll try. So I think the community gives you that. And you can do it with the help of the community.

But it's very hard when you do it on the outside. And I'll be honest, a lot of my friends who have left, their businesses are still tied into it. And they wear if they're guys when they still go.

I have female friends who still work in the community and still keep the dress code to stay there. Because I think even on the business side, even if they value you, they don't want to be the one who has someone who's the troublemaker. So I think it usually keeps you in line or at least keeps some line open for you there.

So I think it's one of the saddest things. Because I kind of agree with the community. If you want someone to leave, you kind of need to get there early.

It's really a critical moment when you decide. And if you stay there past your 20 or 21, you have three to four or more kids relying on you. And your only skill set is one that the community is willing to work with.

So I think is the [INAUDIBLE] preparedness that controls you almost as much as the finances itself. And in the community, it's assumed when you get married, you're going to sign up for the government support. I mean, it's just an assumption.

Yeah, we'll get married. We'll go sign up. There are offices that help you sign up for it that are dedicated to that.

And in order to keep that, a lot of the jobs are done, I don't know if that's an expression in English. In Yiddish we say, under the table. Like, if they pay you cash.

Yes, it's under the table. Yeah, so there's a lot of jobs that are offered under the table so you can still make ends meet. I mean nobody is getting rich that way, so you can still keep those support.

So you're stuck in a cycle that is really tough to get out of. And quite often a lot of people who I meet who are in the community and want to leave, and they already have families always say, I'm just waiting for the kids to get married. And another reason is because if they leave before, they ruin their children's chances of a match and that feels like a big burden.

But it's also you can maybe financially untangle yourself then. Yeah, that concept of familial shame is such a killer. Also I have to say the fact that it is such a given that you will sign up for government benefits or that you might work under the table, it is really fascinating how cultural stigmas apply to certain groups and not to others.

We judge certain groups in the US extremely harshly for taking on any government benefits or for working in an undocumented way and don't for others. And I think a lot of people tend not to realize, obviously I think your community might be an exception. But it is worth saying that the majority of people who use government benefits also work.

Most people use it as a supplement. But this is actually maybe a naive question, so feel free to just be like, no. So your mom says she thinks you're going to come back into the fold at some point.

But based on the system you described where you going to a library or whatever could be a real strike against you in a future marriage market, I mean you having left the community for a decade, who are you going to be marrying at that point? Yeah, so is your question, like, how much going back is possible? Yeah, because if you go back theoretically, isn't the shame you would bring so great that you could never functionally be part of the community?

Yeah, I mean, my ties were there is done. I mean, you're out. I mean, you can presumably come back on hands and knees and beg for it.

But you're still an outsider. Nobody would want your kids for marriage unless they have something that went wrong in their family. I think my mother's faith, and I don't think faith is rational.

I've sometimes asked her, I can say that she prays a lot that I marry someone Jewish. I have not constricted my dating to the Jewish faith or the Jewish identity, I should say. But she prays a lot for it.

And I'm always like, even by some chance the person I do like, and we choose to have kids, I wouldn't raise them Jewish. And she's like, one thing at a time. I mean, I don't think faith is that rational for her.

I think for her, honestly if I choose to follow the rules, even if I'm outside, that would be a win for her. So I mean, it's sad because this is a different question in which certain burdens are put on women over men. And it's extra difficult for me, I'm my mom's only son.

And I know she was raised of your goal is to have sons who worship god and study. And I took that from her. So it's also something I try to be sensitive around her.

And I know I shouldn't be living my life for someone else. But it's hard to know that you're someone's reason why their life didn't work out. So that's a bit of a dance.

So I don't think any of us-- and that's the thing with a lot of family dynamics, even whether it's financial or emotional, not everything that is known is said. So a lot of things are just certain dances we have. And you realize a year or two that that's kind of the agreement you've fallen into.

That you don't touch. So I've given a lot of interviews about this, as you mentioned. And I'll be honest-- well, let me backtrack.

And I know that hurt them a lot. And it came back to me. None of them said it to me to my face.

But it got word out, people told my family about it. And I know it was painful for them that their kid was the poster child of it. On the other hand, a lot of scholarships and opportunities I got was because of those.

I remember when I came to undergrad and I wanted to get a summer internships and everything. And the first few years they want your high school GPA and if you don't have one, you're not getting one. You'll fall out of it.

And you can find someone in your university, but they won't have a payment or anything. So I really wasn't getting any. I was just doing all of these jobs.

And then once I did an interview that was on All Things Considered. And then I ended up getting a fellowship at the University of Michigan. And the person who I ended up going with told me, I saw the interview.

I was really intrigued. And this is, I don't know how true it is for other people that I suspect it is for other people who have left. Your story kind of becomes your currency.

And it really is a way in which, obviously, in the traditional way in which your college application essay is useful. But you also use it as a certain way to open a door that is a bit closed to you that you kind of need to get in on. So the presence of my interviews of that way, using it in certain applications, and certain scholarships to get, and also getting certain awards.

Your story kind of becomes what opens your door. And it messes with you a bit, because you start resenting it. And you kind of feel tired of it.

I mean, I'm sure we all get tired of the spiel of our life that we give. And then feel like, someone's seen me. But it certainly has done it for me.

So for me, those stories that I did and the way I've been outspoken. It's also, I know it made an impact for other people. I did an interview on NBC on Brian William's old show.

RIP. And I ended it with saying, they asked me, what do you want to say to people in the community? And I said, and I really worked hard on that line, but I tried to make it sound natural.

Kind of like I'm pretty sure Neil Armstrong workshopped the one step for a man kind of thing. And was like, oh, I'm going to deliver that, it's going to work. So I said, if you're unhappy, I'm not saying you should leave this life.

I'm not saying you would. But if you want, you could. That kind of became the thing.

And I did that interview. Family was hurt. I thought I got something out of it, I got some use out of it.

And like, two years ago, I was in Mexico just traveling on my own. And I suddenly get this, you know in Messenger when you they're not a friend they say, somebody wants to send you a message. And it's this message from this guy.

And it said, I've been thinking of saying this to you, but I thought you know what, I might as well just say it. And two voice notes. And I was like, what's that going to be?

And I'm sitting there. I was actually literally in a Mezcal bar there. And I listened to it.

And this person tells me that they grew up in a Hasidic community. And they first finally got a cell phone a couple of years ago. And the first thing they were curious was, what do other people know about us?

Because you only know your world. And you're like, do they even know? Or that kind of thing.

And he looked it up and my interview came up. And he said in the end you said, that if you think it doesn't make you happy, you could. And that really moved him.

And he left and he just now got into music school. He's studying music and he wanted to let me know. So how do I balance the impact that speaking out makes with the very real hurt it does for people incredibly close to me?

And how do I value the impact it does for me? I mean, right now, I've gotten to establish myself in my field. And I like to think the things I get in my work now are your average mix of talent, luck, and privilege like everyone else.

But at least in the beginning, it was the story. So how do you balance doing that when the thing that's opening doors for you is kind of causing pain and definitely closed some doors? I mean, after that interview, my mother's parents don't talk to me anymore.

And I have some aunts and uncles. I mean, I joke that my mom is one of eight, my father's one of seven, so I can afford to lose a few aunts and uncles and I still have a big family. But I don't know how.

I don't have the answer. And when people who start asking like, should I do this media event? Should I do this engagement?

And I'm like, it will open doors for you. But it will hurt for people back home. I don't know the answer.

I mean, I hear you. I think obviously it's at a different level. But the idea of being honest about your experience.

And being somewhat opportunistic in that honesty versus upsetting family is an extremely common theme when it comes to talking about finances. Oh, interesting. Actually, not to self plug, but I highly recommend my interview with Ashley C.

Ford on the topic. She actually has a memoir coming out very soon. She grew up in poverty.

Her father was incarcerated for, I think, the first 30 years of her life. And when she talks about growing up in serious financial insecurity and all of those struggles, and the struggles that having an incarcerated parent represented, it's really, really difficult for her mom. Because her mom always worked.

She managed to bust her ass and scrape by with, I think, four kids, three, four kids as a single mom. Also probably doing, I think, some stuff to support her husband who was incarcerated, or her partner. I'm not sure if they were married at the time.

But suffice to say, it was a real kind of source of embarrassment. I similarly, and my parents struggled quite a lot financially when I was young. And it's definitely not their favorite thing for me to talk about and all of that.

And we did recently also an interview with a woman who speaks specifically to first generation Americans about their finances. And of course, the sort of immigrant parent to first gen kid experience, I think, is another area that's very sensitive in terms of the child's experiences versus the parents'. And also I think the real question is to what extent is each person really owed the right to their own experience and their own story?

And I do feel that especially for adult children of any kind of complicated situation, and obviously yours is a much more extreme case. But I think in general something that we try to communicate here at TFD is you have to, to some degree, liberate yourself from the feelings that your truth might bring up for someone else. Now obviously, if you're saying something else.

Like, I would never share a family member's experience that wasn't mine. Or talk about things that don't impact me because that's not my story to tell. And I think that's where there is a lot of sort of ethical issues.

But if you're speaking in honesty about your own experience, I do feel like there's point in adulthood where you kind of have to liberate yourself from the weight that that truth might have on others, as long as it's being shared in an empathetic way. Yeah, that's really fascinating because I've never thought about it in the kind of financial context. But it comes down to, how do you speak compassionately about things your parents didn't give you?

Because the default is that it is a condemning voice. Right. And I don't blame my parents for the education they didn't give me.

They grew up in the world, did what they believed was right. But how do you talk about the long term consequences of choices your parents made that are impacting you? And I think you're right.

The only way it changes is the communication of people who have similar things kind of raising each other's consciousness on it. That's something you give your peers. And your parents don't give you, your peers don't give you.

Right. This reminds me, the community I grew up in had a big meeting years ago in New York to kind of discuss the dangers of the internet. And they took out-- I didn't grow up with sports.

I don't know. Oh, I don't know if I'll be much help. Truly the blind leading the blind through this, but go ahead.

Yes, the big stadium in New York. I don't know which one. They took out a very big one.

All I remember is there the jumbotron had, like, an ad for hot sauce. And there was this woman, I don't, maybe Mexican woman photo on it. So they had to put big white sheets on it so there's photo of a woman there.

So if you all know the stadium that has an ad for hot sauce, that's the one. But they had a huge meeting about the dangers of the internet. And I was so tempted to go there and write, the internet gave me the education you didn't.

Right. Right? I mean, there's gaps that you've given me.

And what I'm doing out here is filling them. And even as I'm talking now, in the beginning of my journey, the big issue was you didn't give me a high school education. The first time I saw a scantron was in my GED test.

I've never seen such a thing in my life. We just didn't have tests. It was all decided on whatever the dean of the schools impression of you was, which fosters its own kind of psychological control and messed upness.

But I was thrown into that world, didn't know anything. With college, I felt unready. Now as I'm getting to kind of establishing my professional life, and I'm realizing the things that were true in the community that are not true in my life now.

So particularly around financial planning. I mean, retirement was not something really discussed in the community because first of all, most people aren't earning the kind of money to build retirement funds. But also you're supported by your family or the community.

I mean, the network of the community is incredible. I mean, it really is, the support network that they have internally. So those things were not really discussed.

Home ownership was a thing way out for people, for a certain segment of the community that had a certain kind of money, either inherited or something like that. But nobody in my family did. I mean, one grandparent had a home that they bought years ago in Williamsburg.

But home ownership didn't exactly translate to most of us. And I arrived at graduate school and we were talking about our stipends. And somebody said, oh, so what about a Roth IRA?

And I'd never heard of one. And I remember thinking, Roth is a Jewish name. What are they doing here?

I had no clue what it was. So now I'm looking back at those kinds of gaps. And a lot of it you can say isn't a bad thing.

That community had a system of taking care of each other. Medical bills are taken care of, you're there. You don't have to think about it.

And now I need to find those gaps at a much later stage. And talking about that also requires me, the line you said, it's not my story to tell. But I'm telling the story of my mother's finances, the finances of people in my family.

And even as I talk about that now, it's kind of a second round of that experience. I think my first round of thinking the impact the community has on doing it has been the education part. And kind of just the pop culture knowledge.

I felt like everybody was talking about things I had no clue. And I had to make up for it and learn it. And now it's, how do you build an adult life outside of a community that completely supports its own and has its network?

And when you get married, they set you up on what you need. And there's different people you can talk to and set up. And that's a whole level of unlearning and far less of a boogie man that I can point to.

But something I didn't even predict would happen, because I thought, OK, you didn't tell me about the world. But in essence, they created a world for themselves that is good. That if you think about the way the elderly, or the way the vulnerable at least physically, mental health is different, are taken care of, I mean, that's awesome.

I think more people would want that. I think it comes at a price, a price I'm not willing to pay. I think it comes with a strong sense of, there has to be someone who is the other for you to be able to describe so broadly who is in your circle.

But they built that thing, and now I am outside of it. And it's not the same tools that I had the first time, which is anger, very righteous anger of what was stolen from me, what was done the wrong way. I think they just solved a different societal ill differently.

And I need to figure out the other way that everyone's doing. And honestly it feels almost, I'm a bit more confident nowadays and have my world. But that learning curve feels kind of new.

And it might be true for everyone, I don't know. I mean, it is and it isn't. I think you're absolutely right when you touch on the allure, even outside of a level of coercion or control, the allure of a very tight-knit and sort of interlocking community that cares for one another, especially elders, is very appealing in an American society that is increasingly atomized.

I mean, there's endless literature on how the nuclear family is like the worst thing to happen to American society, and mental health, and all of that stuff. And I think that's terrible, right? Like, I definitely think that that's probably another contributing factor to becoming part of extremist or isolated communities seems to be ramping in popularity.

But I think the financial learning curve that you're talking about, we speak out to I would say, like, 85% to 90% women depending on our platform from all over the spectrum in terms of backgrounds, and upbringings, and what have you. But what's probably, not even probably, what's statistically most consistent amongst women, including women who have advanced degrees, who have higher than average salaries, is that they were raised almost universally without real financial education. Most women, and we're talking even now about secular women, don't control their long term finances, married women, until the case of death of a spouse or divorce.

And again, these statistics hold up for women who out-earn their spouses. There's also all kinds of statistics around women earning more in a relationship causing all kinds of problems. So even kind of decoupled from a very strict religious upbringing or from education generally kind of being blocked out, we see a world in which women are still very much, I think, quite frankly, that money is used as a tool of control and coercion for women.

It's obviously not nearly to the same extent. But a woman gets married, and has children, and her earning potential is diminished. And the weight of childbearing and child rearing becomes an enormous obstacle for most professional careers.

Because we don't accommodate even just sort of the physicality and the biology of women in that same way. So I think the learning curve, most of the women who come to us, and these are women who are out of college for the most part, they come to us with almost no financial education. Having similar questions about, like, who's Roth?

And not really even understanding that saving for retirement is something that they should be in charge of. So I do think that, interestingly, I would say the isolation that people coming from extremely insular communities experience I think, obviously, a huge part of it is financial. But I think the professional aspect of not being able to earn a living comprehensively, I mean, it sounds like you basically self-taught English through reading Willy Wonka and a dictionary at the same time, which I love, I stan.

But I can only assume from that anecdote that a lot of men grow up not really speaking English very well in your community. Oh, yeah, not at all. I mean, so until age 13, just because to satisfy some government things, you have an hour and a half of what we call English.

It should be secular studies just because a person shows up and speaks English to us. And we don't follow much. And it's the end of the day, and it's not particularly serious.

And you learn about, I would say arithmetic to about multiplication, I would say. You learn the alphabet. But just enough to go to a store and say, how much is this?

But you can't really read a New York Times article. No one can. I'm kidding.

Yeah, oh the horror. I always thought that one of the reasons, for the few people who do kind of learn English over time. They hear it around.

If you have more sisters, you maybe hear it a little bit more. I always thought maybe that's why the New York Post becomes more popular. Because I think their English is a little bit more, this is my very snobby ivory tower opinion.

But yeah, you really don't speak English at all. I mean, you don't have a working fluency of it. Yeah, I couldn't until-- and there were times when I look back and I was like, OK, it couldn't have been that bad.

And then recently I found these, like, videotapes that I like-- because I discovered movies when I was 13. Which I've never seen, we had no movies, no television. Everybody has one bad uncle.

So I had one bad uncle who would sneak in movies. And saw Life is Beautiful. Wow.

And I remember going to him and I was like, well, why don't they follow me? Maybe something interesting will happen to me. And he was like, well, there's this concept of actors and cameras.

And I was, like, blown away by it. So I became completely obsessed with it. So this is an random side story.

So I saved some of my money from Hanukkah and for Purim when you get money, and got a video camera. And then the Jewish Community Center in Manhattan I found it had a film class. But I was yeshiva full time.

So I told the principal I said, I need to leave every Monday. And I had my eyes downcast and I said, I kind of need to do it. And he looked at me and said, is it better you don't tell me what it's about?

And I said, yes. And I left and I took a lot of film classes. He assumed because my parents divorced that there were some issues there.

So it worked for me. So I did a lot of secret filming. And I was looking at some of the way I spoke and my English was bad and way more accented than it is now.

So I think I forgot. I mean, I also learned full English from reading so I mispronounce words terribly. I still remember like "melan-choly" or a bunch of other ones like that.

The people need to see these videos. They sound adorable. Yeah, I edited some video, put it on my YouTube.

I mean, I have no clue what to do with them. I have, like, 18 hours. I mean, most of it is me secretly setting up the camera, doing a walk.

I'll think of something, I don't know. I mean, once I put it out, two different producers contacted me. But I've had the experiences with media.

And I think, I don't know if I others can speak to it. But at this point, I really want to control the stories I put out and the narrative. So I'll do something with it just because I think it is a unique perspective.

But I just haven't decided if somebody has-- I mean, I think I can just, I suppose, put them out. But I'm thinking of some ways to do it, again, tell a certain story. And honestly, I really was excited when you reached out to me, because as you see from my answers, I'm still thinking through the financial implications of it.

And I don't remember there being a lot of conversations on it directly. So one of the things I'm thinking about a lot now, looking back at, I guess my trajectory and my story, and as I was looking back at the tapes, is the first thing when people see it, they always talk about bravery. It must have been so brave.

I'll take some credit for that. But when I look at it, I see a lot of the things I did that now have implications that are still in my life, even though I don't need them anymore. My research in immunology's in inflammation.

And I always say that I think it applies for things outside of life that most things that go wrong are either because you didn't defend yourself or before because you defended yourself too much. And that's true in the immune system, right? Either you are too vulnerable or you have autoimmune disease or COVID is when your immune system really goes into overdrive.

And I think a lot of it is also true for psychologically. I think even money, we didn't touch on this. But my parents' divorce was super messy financially.

And I just saw a side of it. And it made me become obsessed with being independent. And not wanting money from other people.

And getting really suspicious of gifts. And kind of not wanting anyone to be able to lord that over me, just seeing my friends and how finances always came in. So when I think about the tapes I have, or going forward, there's a lot of things that are really brave that get you out of certain things.

And then the habits you develop kind of sustain throughout your life. And they don't always serve you if you don't address them. Yeah.

If I can think of that lens, maybe I'll put it out. But I'm still working through it. I mean, that's very common with people who grew up in serious financial insecurity.

They learn to, essentially, hoard money as a defense mechanism. But then that ends up costing you enormously in your life because you don't do things like invest, or other things, take risks that would allow you to earn more. So in terms of a final sort of overall question, not specifically about your community.

This could be for anyone, including maybe even people who aren't religious at all. But for anyone who grew up in a very insular community, or a very kind of closed off even just family environment, who are thinking of going into the real world, quote, unquote, and are very nervous specifically about survival when it comes to professional and financial survival, what advice would you give that you wish someone had given you? That's so interesting.

Well, I think the biggest thing to get over is shame. You feel that you're-- and I know imposter syndrome and all of these things are not relegated to those contexts. But I think the thing I wish I knew is everybody just wants a-- can I curse?

Oh, yeah, of course. I already cursed. Everybody just wants a fucking good worker.

And I think, I don't know, I'm curious your opinion of this. I personally have found in my career now, and science is a bit different because there's a certain set. You're supposed to apply for your PhD, you apply for post-doctoral fellowships.

But I've kind of found that they really lie to you about the resume. Oh, yeah. They say, oh, you're going to meet all these criteria and you'll get a job.

Like, I don't think I've ever gotten a job because of a resume. I got a job because either somebody connected to some work I did. Or we had a good rapport.

And I certainly think that breeds bias. I see it a lot. I know when I was interviewing for grad school the fact that many old men in the department found me as one of them, and they could banter.

And I honestly think a lot of the offers I got was because of that. So I think there's a lot of bias in that. But I don't think my resume got me work.

Oh yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah, so I think looking back, it's hard for me to say because I feel like I've been so lucky in so many ways. And I'm not trying to be modest.

I think I do well and I work hard. But the kind of field I'm in certainly-- well, here's something I'll bring up as an anecdote. When I got into my PhD program at NIH, they offered me an extra scholarship to get independent funding so I can choose any question I want to work on.

So I'm not beholden to any grant. And I was convinced the only reason I got it was because of my story. And I was like, even in science, it's all about like, oh, do you know where he came from?

And I was really kind of upset. And I spoke to the director of the program, a great scientist, [INAUDIBLE]. I don't know if she'll ever-- this is a sidetrack and I'm going to run over time.

But she studies dog genetics because people have been breeding dogs for years for certain traits. So they're very good to study the relationship between a gene and a trait. And I went to her office when I first got to the NIH, and I walked in, and her office is covered in plush toy dogs.

So I'm like, oh my god, I used to work in them. She goes, oh, I don't really like them. But when I started working in science people told me that you as a woman, you shouldn't have any plush animals in your office.

So whenever I get offered one at a dog show, I take it in. So I thought that was cool. She's a great scientist, recently elected to the National Academy of Science.

But anyway, so I told her and I said, I kind of feel bad. And I was like, do you need me to write like quoted for a press release so you can say the work. And she said, I grew up, my father didn't think women should be in science.

And I did it, and I was convinced that every award I got was because of that. And I'm looking at her, I'm thinking like, oh my god, you've done incredible work on the relationship between, well we say gene to phenotype, or gene to trait, height, color, that kind of thing. So that moment was to me a moment to realize that there's going to be a point when people will just treat you as a worker.

And you will notice it later than the people around-- or as a colleague, or as someone with skills. And that chip on the shoulder lasts longer on the inside than it lasts on the outside. And I think a lot of people struggle with that.

So I think I could have given myself a break earlier. Like, I definitely used my story in the beginning to get into stuff. But I wish I forgave myself and told myself, some of the things are you've actually become good at something.

So I wish I told myself that earlier. Totally, yeah, also I know who you are because that's why I initially followed you. But if anyone follows you on social media, they would never know.

Like, you're always tweeting about poems, and genes, and-- Yeah, and part of it was for a while I was like, I want to see if I can get anything that way. Or I was like, the next time I'm interviewed for not my past will be a big moment. But it was also for me a way of letting go.

I mean, the validation for who you are and the self come from a circle smaller than the one you reach through media recognition. And those things are decided by different trends and interests. And some of it does great work.

You know, people hear stories and they share. And some of it is indulgent. And you choose for your mental health which ones you want to do and which one you don't.

Oh absolutely. Also, I mean, let's be clear, this is America. I can't speak for other countries, but here, you play any card that you have.

And everyone here who is successful is to some extent an opportunist. And we, especially in our early days, but even to this day as TFD, many of the opportunities that we get as a business are because we're an all-female company with a mostly female audience, which is very rare in the financial world. So that is the card that, do I like the fact that we're always in like a special auxiliary category just for the ladies?

No, I don't love that. But at the same time, whatever. I do think that having a card and playing it is something that people should never be embarrassed about.

Also for anyone leaving a really isolated situation, or even really just women leaving any normal situation because we get no education on finances, just remembering that finances can be difficult. Because often it's hard to make given decisions on a day to day basis. Or to make the right choices, or to even get into a place to be able to save a certain amount of money.

But it's not hard, it's not difficult. Or it's difficult, not hard. There's not a lot of math.

There's not a lot of complex formulas. Like, it's pretty simple once you learn the basics. Well, Dr.

Samuel Katz, where can people go to find out more about you and what you do? Oh, sure. I'm on Twitter.

Twitter handle is the number two, the letter B, is the answer. Because, you know, the question, cheesy. Same handle on Instagram.

Instagram it's more like my baking and my cooking. And on Twitter I usually talk about science, the things I like, The Bachelor, other silly stuff. Whoa, can't believe it took this long to get there.

Our producer is a very big member of the Bachelor Nation. Yes, no, I love a good Bachelor Nation deep dive. But I always leave it a little opening for the next conversation.

Yes, exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining and telling a little bit about your very unique but hopefully universally relevant to some extent experience. And thank you guys for joining us.

And I will see you next Monday on the next episode of The Financial Confessions. Goodbye, everyone. [MUSIC PLAYING]