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In this episode of The Financial Confessions, therapist and YouTuber Kati Morton talks all things money and mental health, from common misconceptions of therapy, to ways to manage money anxiety, to talking to your loved ones about money problems.

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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Financial Confessions with someone who I'm comfortable at this point referring to as a friend of The Financial Diet.

But before I introduce you guys to her, I want to give a quick hello to our beloved partners with whom we create every episode of The Financial Confessions. So as you guys already know by now, every episode of The Financial Confessions is made in partnership with Intuit who are the makers of so many fantastic apps that totally transform your financial life.

Everything from doing your taxes to managing your personal budget to managing business expenses, if you have them, are made so much easier by having the right tools in your back pocket. And Intuit essentially pairs you up with the tools that you need to make all of these decisions more clear and easy to understand, help you reach your goals better, send you the reminders that you need to keep track of things. Because honestly, managing money can feel very overwhelming, and it feels really nice to have the right tools in your corner to help make sure you're doing things the right way and you're not forgetting stuff.

One of the first things I ever did to get good with money was download Mint to my phone. And this was like in the time of my life where I was literally avoiding looking at my bank account because I knew nothing good awaited me there. And just having that ease of understanding my own finances totally transformed my life basically overnight and led me eventually to creating TFD.

So if you want to get started with Intuit's amazing suite of products, check them out at the link in our description or the show notes. Friend of TFD, therapist, YouTuber, writer, good person, Kati Morton is in our studio today. Hello, Kati.

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Welcome back.

I know, yay. Yay. If you guys missed it, Kati did a couple videos on our channel on my Tuesday show a couple months back that were fantastic.

And you guys loved them, and you guys have been asking a lot for a therapist on the show because that is one of the professions that we haven't had. We recently had on a divorce lawyer. I saw that, so interesting.

So interesting. Good stuff. Yeah, no, good stuff.

But we want to have more people who look at the topic of money and the topic of life through their specific expertise and prism, yours being therapy. So we threw it out to you guys to ask all kinds of questions for Kati. But before she answers them, want to give a little bit of context to the kind of therapist you are and how you're qualified to give this advice?

Yeah, so I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of California, and my specialties are actually eating disorders and self-injury, which really translates to everybody else, meaning that I do a lot of CBT, or cognitive behavioral therapy, and DDT, dialectical behavior therapy, which really means that I work on changing our faulty thoughts so that our behaviors are more in line with where we want to go in life. Does that make sense? Totally.

That's fascinating. So interesting combination, so how do eating disorders and self-injury fall under the category of family and relationships? I mean, nothing happens in a vacuum.

That's true. And we're always in relationships. But that's kind of the misconception about marriage and family therapist is they think, oh, it's only couples.

It's only families. It really means that unlike other masters in psychology fields like social work and a licensed professional clinical counselor or psychologist, we focus on relationships, relationships others and relationships with yourself. That self-relationship.

It's a doozy. A doozy, to say the least. So you guys ask tons of questions.

I'm not going to be able to get to all of them, but I'm going to do a lot of them. Well, we'll move quickly. I'll do my best.

So actually, this one is a good one to start with because you specialize in people with eating disorders, and I think this would probably be an example of that. I have an emotional eating problem. How do I stop spending so much money on this habit?

Honestly, the best way is to recognize your triggers, which I know a lot of people think, oh, just stop eating so much. Just set a budget, stick to it. No, it's emotional.

It's actually related to how we're feeling and what we think about ourselves and food. And so for many of my clients, the triggers could be like a fight with a loved one. It could be a trauma from our past that has sparked like a flashback.

Try to pay attention to when you binge eat or spend the most. Something that you told me last time we got together was you're working from a budget, you just don't know it. Yes.

So you go back and look like your last statements. Figure out which days you spent the most on food, and maybe consider keeping track of how you're feeling every day so you can see when you're working towards maybe that kind of situation again because there are patterns to it. And everyone's going to be different.

For some people, it's stress at work. Other people, it's relationship issues. Other people, it's a trauma from our past.

Really, eating disorders are coping skills. So what are you trying to numb out with food? That's the real question.

I know that's a lot, but that's the answer to really how to slowly stop spending so much on food. It's not black and white. Right, probably wouldn't be a bad thing to get a little therapy in there.

Yeah, therapy and a dietician can help, too. They can let you know what's a right amount of food to eat. Like, what's a good portion?

Oftentimes we have a skewed view of it. Nice, yeah, we do. Advice for how to have difficult conversations with family members who are making bad money moves.

Oh yeah, that's hard. That can be super difficult when it's your elders in a family. Yes, if it's like a parent.

Yeah. I think the best way is first of all, journal about it. We have to get it all out, all the nasty, angry, whatever you want to say, it's OK to write that stuff out.

You need to get it out of your body. And then consider the bullet points of what you really want them to hear. Keep it minimal, three to five things.

That's the maximum amount of things you should try to get across. Then practice saying them out loud in front of a mirror, to a spouse or a friend, and try to roleplay what you think they're going to say back. And do that a few times until there's, we call it no emotional charge.

It really means that you don't get heated or overwhelmed in the conversation so that you can stay level-headed, and then go do it. Pick a time that's not a super stressful time. Like, holidays are terrible.

A birthday party is terrible. Just go to dinner go over on your own, just a random occasion, and that's when you should speak about it. I feel like it's so important what you said about just keeping a very narrow focus on what you're trying to get across.

And I think particularly that's important because not only is it easier to take in when it's a relatively manageable number of things or specific, but it's also a lot easier to kind of keep the focus where it needs to be, keep a person accountable. Because when you have a whole litany of things, you can easily cherry pick one of them, kind of argue it out. And whether it's whataboutism or it's making false equivalencies, it's very easy with a huge litany of things for the person to feel very overwhelmed and defensive and find ways to poke holes in it.

Totally, or just shut down. where they don't even hear you. And I think that's the biggest problem when we try to communicate a lot of things at once is it just gets lost. I even feel that way personally if someone's like, so today I need you to-- and they just start listing.

If they were like, here's the 15 things I need you to do. After, like, three or four, I'm like, oh, my brain just checks out kind of. So keep that in mind.

And I think practicing it really helps too because we don't want to be overly emotional. That's when we'll say things we don't mean. We'll take things personally.

Yeah, just keeping it to what really needs to get across so they actually hear you. I agree. We were talking before we started filming, I go to therapy once a week.

And I find the most effective sessions individually are when we work on one very specific thing, and I, to your point, will practice what I want to say about something and just even say it out loud. We roleplay sometimes a conversation that I'm a little nervous about having. And obviously, it's easier to do that with a therapist, but it is still something that you can do with a trusted loved one who is not part of the situation, like maybe a spouse or a best friend who's not necessarily involved with this parent situation but could be a sounding board and tell you how things are coming across.

Because ultimately, a lot of it just comes down to how clear and composed you're able to be in the moment and how compassionate you can be. Because let's be honest, confronting someone about a bad money habit is not that different from confronting them about something else, like perhaps a substance problem or a behavioral problem where it is so easy for that conversation to become incredibly defensive. Totally, because essentially, you're looking out at them and saying, like, something that you're doing doesn't sit well with me, and we have to do that in a very careful and cautious way so that they don't immediately shut down and stop listening or leave the conversation.

Which is an understandable response, on some level. It's terrifying to be called out. Yeah, it's hard.

Oh, this is terrible. I'm in therapy, but I have severe depression. How can I hold a job when it feels pointless?

Yeah. I was recording something the other day, and I love analogies. And I feel like depression is like falling into, like, a deep ocean, and you're slowly falling down and you can't see the light anymore, as you get deeper and deeper.

Honestly, when it comes to this situation, I'm not a doctor, but I would recommend you see one. I would see a psychiatrist. A medical doctor?

A psychiatrist would be my preference. If that's not available, if that's too expensive, even just your GP. Internist?

Yeah, your internist, your primary care doctor. Get in to see them and let them know because psychotropic medication, meaning an antidepressant or in that realm, can really help us when we're drowning in the symptoms. Right.

Therapy can't help with that because in order for therapy to work, we have to be feeling good enough to be able to do some of the tools and techniques and new behaviors. We have to be able to challenge thoughts. If we are deep in the ocean and there is no light and all we can think are nasty, hopeless, terrible things, we're going to need some chemical assistance.

I always call it, like, a life raft. It gets our head above water. And it doesn't even have to be on it forever.

Talk to the doctor. Tell them all your symptoms. Start writing those down.

I know that can be hard. Have a friend help you if you're feeling really down and out. Something I would have you write down, here's just like five things.

How often you showering? Write that down. Tell them.

How often do you have thoughts of suicide? Has your appetite changed? Have your sleep patterns changed?

And do you have any body aches? Those are things they're going to look for. Write this stuff down and bring it in.

And then ask about side effects. You don't just stay on the medication forever, but really, it sounds like you need a life raft, and that's OK. I know.

It's hard. I just want to reach out and hug that person, but I know that wouldn't help. But it does get better.

Well, yes, that's very true. It's interesting, I'm sure you've probably been through this, too. Have you ever had a flu, and as you come out of the flu and you're going back to work and living a normal life, but you have no appetite.

You're fatigued all the time. You don't want to do anything. For people who've never experienced something like depression, it's very akin to that feeling of like, everything feels like an unnecessary endeavor.

It's so strange. The appetite thing in particular is so disorienting, that feeling of like, food holds no interest. You Everything is effort.

Yeah, absolutely. fatigue alone will kill people. Fatigue is so terrible. It is.

That's why showering, like hygiene is hard because that is a lot. If we're super exhausted and overwhelmed, the thought of having to shower and then get ready again is just like, oh, I'm already tired. I don't think how this applies to someone who's in a severe depression.

But in the times when I've been in really bad kind of dynamics, I've found that if I can make myself shower, if I can make myself put on makeup, straighten my hair, and dress in nice clothes, all of the sudden I feel so much more motivated to do different things. Yeah, I always tell my patients, if I can get you to shower and get out of the house for 15 minutes, you've won. Those are our goals to start out with.

It's mind boggling how much easier it is once you're out to stay out or once you're dressed to go out. It's just hard to get out or get dressed, right? That always makes us want to slump back on the couch.

Totally. What resources are available for people who want or need help but live in a therapy desert? Oh, there's a lot of them, actually.

That's a cool thing about the internet. So first of all, if you're in crisis, if you're having a really tough time, there's crisis text line. You can reach out to them.

They have trained crisis counselors available. There's 7 Cups of Tea. I think it's just

They have a peer support area, and then you can pay to talk to a therapist through that. There's also Better Help is an online therapy where you can either text, chat on their site, or do Skype sessions with a therapist in your area or in your state, rather. And then there's also Talk Space I believe is the other one that's similar to Better Help online therapy.

And I'm sure there's others out there, but those are the ones that I'm most familiar with. Great. Well, we actually had a question piggybacking on that about online therapy specifically.

Is online therapy really safe and secure? It should be. It's OK to ask to see their credentials, to see their license, to get their resume or CV, whatever you want to call it.

You can ask for that from a therapist. But as long as you're going through reputable company, read through their terms of service. I know that sounds terrible, but read through some of the things you have to say, I agree, I accept.

Read through that. Make sure that it all sounds good to you. I know Talk Space and Better Health both have been super helpful for my viewers and even members of my family and my friends.

So I do believe they're credible and good. I prefer in-person therapy only because I think there's certain things you miss being online. For instance, if you haven't showered or dressed up, you could look nice from here up.

But if you're in my office, I can tell how you're doing. Or if you're fidgeting, your feet are shaking, it's hard for you to sit still, if I'm only seeing you from the neck up, I might not be able to tell that. So there's some things that can be missed, but I think online therapy is great.

It's a great resource. And yes, in order to be credentialed, they have to abide by certain laws and regulations. But just check, always check.

I have a question about your style as a therapist. This is my question. I'm jumping in.

So I love a therapist who's extremely austere, very distant. My therapist is one of those therapists who if you're not talking, he'll sit there until you say something. Oh yeah, me too.

That's your way? That's so interesting. I feel like you give off such a vibe of being a talker.

But it's different because that's like the channel, right? If I didn't talk, nothing would happen. That's true.

That's true. But it's so interesting the things that people-- I include myself, obviously, in this statement-- will say, when they are forced with a silence and not being prompted. Yeah.

It's so funny. I've had several sessions where I go in, and I'm like, well, I hate to disappoint you, but I really have nothing to say. And he'll just sit there.

And then I'm like, fine, fuck it. And then I go into it. It's so funny.

I might be a little more directive than that. Because patients always come in and like, I don't really know what to say this week. And I'll be like, well, tell me what happened.

Like, I'll start off with something basic, like what happened yesterday? How was your day today? But if they don't talk, like if I ask a question or two and there's no response, then I just sit there with them.

You're like, this is your money, not mine. Well, there's a thing in therapy where we're not supposed to work harder than our patients. Right, right.

But I'm also not supposed to work less hard, right? So I come to the session with the tips and tools and techniques and education to assist you in the best way I can, so that's my job. But if you're not meeting me there and trying to integrate the new information that we're learning together-- it's hard.

I don't expect it to be like, presto, but if you're not even attempting, I'm not going to attempt either. Yeah. So it can be uncomfortable for people.

Yeah, but the therapy that you do, because you're talking to people who have, in many cases, like an immediate self-harming or endangering behavior, it's very behavior-driven what you do, right? Yes, yes. So it's a lot about like, how did we do on this specific task this week?

Yes. There's lots of homework, lots of directives. Right.

So it's a very compassionate but tough love type style that I do, mainly because I have to challenge the faulty beliefs that are creating this issue, meaning I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable, I'll never be enough, things like that. Yeah. Gosh, that has got to be overwhelming at times.

I don't really see it that way. It's your job. I know.

I don't know. It's weird because people are like, how do you do that not bring it home with you? And I'm like, training?

I really don't know. It's just boundaries. I think it's actually healthy boundaries and my own therapy.

Love that. We stan a therapist in therapy. Got to practice what I preach.

This person says, how do you balance charging what you're worth with helping those who need it most? Sliding scale? Always.

Yeah. But the funny thing is, just for complete candor because I have no problem talking about money, I haven't raised my rates in a long time, mainly because it's not my full source of income. What do you charge per hour, will you say?

Yeah, $150. That's what I pay. And I feel like that's reasonable.

It pays for my rent, and I still am able to make some money after taxes. But a lot of my colleagues charge to $225, and that's about the going rate in Santa Monica where I practice. So I don't raise my rates.

I will if I have to. When our rent goes up, I'll raise it like $5 or whatever. I also always leave two slots open for freebies, meaning I may charge them nothing.

I always charge something, I will be honest, because I think you need to have a little skin in the game. Otherwise, I don't know, if you get free things, we don't place as much value on them. You don't care as much for them.

Exactly. That's why copays exist, by the way, if people don't know that. And so I do charge at least $20.

But I mean, I have a patient now that's paying $60. Most of my patients are paying full amounts, and I have a patient that right now isn't paying anything, but she has in the past but she lost her job. And I do stuff on YouTube.

It's free education. So I think it's a lot of balance. Good for you.

And for those of you out there, never be afraid to be honest with your therapist about what you can pay. Because my therapist was like, I go from $150 to $250 an hour. I obviously prefer it to be the full pay.

And full disclosure, I love him. He's wonderful, big part of my life. But he is in a very rich neighborhood.

I know all the rich people who are going to this man. I'm like, I'm paying him $150. That's what I can afford.

Yeah. And he was like, OK, and it's been great. So if I had not said, I wouldn't have paid $250.

I just wouldn't have worked with him, and I would have missed out on what has been a very beneficial relationship. And that's the thing, it's OK to ask, do you work on a sliding scale? Right.

That's language that they understand. They'll let you know. Everybody does, but they might say no if all their slots of that are filled because we have to pay our rent and we have to totally do all sorts of things, too.

You know, we have to live our lives, but always ask for that. And the funny thing about being a therapist is my patients with the most money complain the most about paying $150. That's terrible.

Really? Yes. And I'm sure any other profession out there that charges by the hour, you'll feel the same way.

You're probably nodding your head being like, oh my god. Because I had this patient for many years-- I'm not seeing her anymore-- she has successfully launched. But her family was really struggling financially, and her mom did not want for me to give them a discount.

She's like, I really respect what you do. I told her only charged $100 because I could just sense that it was hard, and they always paid me every week. Even the grandma came and paid one week.

I mean, it was like a whole joint effort to help their oldest daughter. But then one of my patients who's a plastic surgeon complains every week, but that's something we talk about. It's not really about that.

It's about something else. Oh my god, wow. Yeah, just for some inside scoop.

Also just how rude and awkward to complain every week about this service that you pay for and have agreed to with a professional. Like, I hate that. Now, that being said, when we're setting the terms, I'm very much like, it's $!50, and I understand if that doesn't work for you.

But once you agree to that, how dare you complain about it? Yeah, yeah. Don't like that.

People do. But they come to therapy for a reason, so you got to work on it. Not me, I'm perfect.

I just go to polish the diamond. I like that. That's funny.

Oh man, this is a really interesting one. How can I forgive my parents for mishandling money when I was a child? Oh, a lot of what we have to do as adults, unfortunately, is grieve for what we wished our parents had done in many ways.

I wish my mom stood up to my dad more or my dad was better with money or had saved for my college education or saved for anything. or abuse, and there's all sorts of other issues we could really get into. But when it comes to financial decisions and what we wish our parents did, you just have to grieve. I think we talk about grief when it comes to someone passing away, but we grieve all the time-- what we thought this relationship would be, when we all of a sudden realized that our parents don't know everything and aren't good at everything.

I feel like that happens usually like in our late teens, early 20s. Or I'm 36, so I'm like, wow, my parents really had no idea what they were doing because I don't have any idea what I'm doing, you know? Sure.

You're just trying to figure it out. And so I think that that's really the key to that is accepting the loss and then letting yourself express that loss. And that doesn't mean that you have to tell them.

I actually wouldn't encourage you to talk to them about it because it's not going to get you anywhere. Right. What's done is done, but how do we move forward?

So let it go. Maybe write a letter to your past self about all the things you wish you could have done or you wish they would have done for you or what that financial stability would have given you or I don't know, whatever. Because I know that in a lot of ways, for children growing up with parents that aren't good with money, it can be traumatizing.

Like, the lights are turned off, there's no food in the kitchen. So it's OK to tap into that young you and talk to them. Totally.

Because in some ways, we have to reparent ourselves in the way that we wish it had happened. And I agree with all of that, and I would add, it's so important to remember that financial literacy is something very few people receive. There's all kinds of backgrounds that can lead to people being in a very disadvantaged place with money, whether you're an immigrant or you're caught in a cycle of poverty or you had an unexpected illness.

There are so many things that even people with the best intentions can be put in horrible financial dynamics. And even amongst people who are doing OK, real, true financial literacy is something many people, most people even don't have. Yeah, well, people don't want to talk about it.

People don't want to talk about it. So I feel like at least putting it in the prism in your mind of like, I don't know if this person's parents were financially insecure, but understanding how difficult it is when you are in a cycle of poverty to get out of that cycle of poverty and just having empathy for how difficult money is for so many people. Yeah, and especially if we grew up not talking about it or if your parents' parents, like your grandparents, had their own weird behaviors around money.

Right. Because we looked to our caregivers-- usually it's mom and dad, but it can be grandparents or aunts and uncles or whomever-- but we look to those relationships and situations as blueprints for how we do things. And so if the way that your grandfather spent money was completely frivolous and out of control, that you can't still be sad about it, but it can make more sense as to why maybe your dad does that or something.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Patterns also help me feel a little more empathy for situations, where I'm like, wow, you didn't actually know any better.

That's hard, you know? Yeah, and I feel like that rule in general of when people are behaving in a way that makes you upset but often comes from a place of anger or hurt or defensiveness or not handling some kind of injury well, even if it's just a coping mechanism, I feel like saying to yourself, it must feel terrible to feel that way or to think that way. But for example, when you think about someone who has, let's say, a compulsive spending issue, which can be, obviously, devastating if that person is your provider.

That is awful, but it must be awful to be in the brain of a compulsive spender. Totally, and we know how out of control that can feel and how scary and unsure they can feel about their future. We've all been there in situations where we haven't made good money decisions, or a lot of people have.

And I feel like if you could just tap into that for a minute, you're like, they're not happy with it either. They just don't know how to fix it. And having a little empathy and then giving yourself the time to grieve I really think is the best way out, versus the anger that I'm sure is being felt.

And can be felt. Of course. But ultimately, if a parent or parents are severely mishandling money, they're hurting their child, but first and foremost, they're hurting themselves.

Yes, and they had money problems before you were around, I'm sure. Yeah. So yeah, but it is hard, and it's OK to feel angry.

It's OK to be upset. I was upset for years that my parents never saved for my college education, but it was mainly because they just didn't think about it. What?

You want to go to school? Oh. You know, which is fine, I'm thankful for it now because I appreciated school.

I was serious when I was there. But me being angry about it now isn't going to help that. Right.

So I just have to understand that that wasn't a priority for them and that they didn't understand how important it was going to be. And I know now because I've talk to my mom about it-- you can talk to your parents too, if you feel OK about it-- but I talked to her about it. She felt really guilty that they hadn't.

And so like we were saying, I'm sure your parent doesn't feel great about their decisions either. How can I help my male partner disassociate his self-worth from his finances? Oh.

That toxic masculinity, boy. It'll get you every time. It'll get you.

Well, so much of how we perceive ourselves is rolled up into a lot of things. It can be money. It can be status, which kind of goes along with money, education, where you live.

There's all sorts of things that we take on as immediately judging ourselves. Our bodies. Yep, yeah.

That's the women problem mostly, men too, but it can really affect us. So I think part of it is just, and this sounds bad, but you can't make anybody do anything. You can help by giving compliments to things that don't have anything to do with that.

I was just thinking that. That's so true. Because they're going to have to better understand their situation and why they're doing it.

Right. Because like we talked about our other videos, mental health and spending, they're all entangled. And so there's some reason that this person is doing this.

And so in order for them to understand that and to improve that for themselves, they have to want to do it. You can't make them, unfortunately. But they're going to have to get in therapy or talk to a financial assistant to help them better understand what's going on, watch more of your videos, better understand money and things like that.

Watch all of my videos. Just put it on auto-play and just let it roll. So doing some of that so they can better understand but the best thing you can do is just compliment other areas and encourage them to get support.

Yeah. I would also find things to do with that person that you guys really love and treasure that don't cost money. Yeah, that'd be great.

And yeah, doing things in general in your life. You're like, oh, well, we'll just stay in because I got this food. I'm going to cook this.

And you know, I got a bottle of wine, so we don't have to go out. Yeah, a picnic. Yeah, money-saving things.

A tandem bike ride where you're both wearing berets and neck scarves. Oh, so romantic. Just, you know, riding through the park.

I feel like we're in Paris or something. We're cheesy. Yes, baguettes and flowers sticking out of the basket.

Yes. Now, your self-worth is not dictated by your finances. No.

But you got to take care of them. Yes. So as I mentioned earlier, basically the first ever step that I took in my life to get good with money was to download an app called Mint-- it's totally free, by the way-- which syncs up to all of your bank accounts and your credit cards and your credit score, everything that you need to get a full picture of your day-to-day personal finances and managing your budget.

It will do things like make a really beautiful little pie chart of all the different ways you're spending. You can set goals for spending targets in certain categories, and it will even literally send you little text messages letting you know when you're going over in a certain category and need to reel it in, which let's be honest, happens kind of frequently with me and food. But basically, it just acts as this little buddy to help make sure your entire budget is being managed in the right way and you're working toward your goals.

I have personally found it to be transformative in my own financial life, and I cannot recommend enough that you check it out at the link in our description or the show notes. That's Mint, a totally free app. Oh my god, this is funny.

I feel like this question is so not framed well. Is it better to compulsively save or to compulsively spend? How about compulsively not doing that?

Nothing compulsive. Nothing compulsive. That's the answer.

Nothing should be compulsive. No, yeah. Yeah, but I think it'd be helpful for this person to probably better understand their triggers.

Right, I mean, listen, if you're somehow deciding between the two as a life path, because usually you don't really have much of a choice in the matter. You do one or the other. Yeah.

But let's say in this hypothetical scenario, you just literally are like, I could become a compulsive saver or a spender. I mean, listen, on some more financial level, sure, saving a ton of money is probably better. Yes.

But we actually just heard from the person that I interviewed just before Kati, he saves 99% of his income, and his biggest financial regret was spending a lot of his 20s saying no to almost everything to save every possible dime, and he regrets that. Well, that's the thing because money, in some ways, is just a tool to have life experiences and grow. There's obviously a line between that and compulsive spending, like over indulging in things, going above your budget, and racking up credit card debt or things that can make it difficult for you later.

But yeah, it's OK to buy those concert tickets or to go out to that nice meal because you really like food and you like that place. You want to try it, and you enjoy experiences with people. There's things that you can do, and there's ways to spend your money thoughtfully.

It's not black and white. This compulsive thing sounds very black and white. I'm either doing this, or I'm doing this.

And I encourage you to embrace the gray. I agree. How do you tell the difference between just being busy versus being productive at work?

I think in a lot of ways, I always think to myself, is there a better way to do this? And if you check in, and you're like, I don't know, doing something very tedious that there's got to be a program that can do that for you. Or for me, I'm like, is this something that I could source out to someone else?

But if that's not the case, it could like, are you just distracting? Right. And I feel like busy, I don't know why we romanticize that word.

I hate it. I hate it. I hate the word busy.

Drop it from your vocabulary. Yes, and like, hustle? I'm so busy right now.

Oh, hustle, please don't even get me started. It's like shut up, stop. Yeah.

Also I'm sorry, I know it's supposed to be a humble brag, especially in New York, that you're busy. But if you're busy, that just means you can't manage your time well. Exactly, because we all have time.

Not a brag, not a flex. No. Back in the day when I was working two jobs and doing YouTube, it was chaos.

I'll be honest. Totally. But a lot of my friends are like, I don't even know how you find the time.

Oh my god. And I always say, you always have time. It's just how you manage it.

Absolutely. I'm such a passive aggressive B. Because I know a few people who are very busy fetishists and loves to talk about how busy they are.

And anytime someone would say, I've just been so busy, I'm like, that's crazy. I have so much free time. Really anytime that works for you, works for me.

Yeah. I can do whatever. Just got to put it in my calendar.

Yeah, I'll just stick it in my calendar, and I'll do it. I'll make time for it. The thing is that I think at the end of the day, people aspire to being busy for the sake of being busy because I think it's some sort of character-building exercise.

And we've been supporting this forever. There was this meme that I saw. Sometimes means just really-- Love a meme.

They just hit home, so good. And it was saying, why does everything have to be a side hustle? Whatever happened to hobbies?

Whatever happened to free time? Totally. And I'm butchering it because it's a meme, so it's much more hilarious.

More pithy? Yes, I'm like, oh, dropped that. But the overall gist of it is very true.

Totally. Can't we just have free time? Can't we make time for friends and not have to take Instagram photos to prove it or share it?

Or got a great that content, hustle, hustle, rise and grind. It's like, stop. And at the times when I feel most busy, as in just most overwhelmed with tasks, those are the times I'm least happy.

Same, 100%. And I will say, this is probably one of those fake quotes that you know when you see the quote that it's like, if you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best, Marilyn Monroe. It's like, no fucking way that woman said that.

So this is probably one of those fake quotables, but I think was Bill Gates said that he always gives the hardest tasks to the laziest person because they find the most effective way to do it. Oh. I like that.

You know, the shortest way to get the job done. And I feel very much the same. Like at our office, I really could not care less what time people come in, when they leave.

It doesn't matter. Just look at the results. Yeah, did you get completed what you need to get completed?

Totally. And if you can do it in a shorter span of time, great. And it's funny because like we did summer Fridays last year, loved it.

We're going to do summer Fridays again this year. And if productivity is the same, we're keeping them. Well yeah, there was a study, I think it was in Japan, where they took Fridays off.

Yeah, productivity increases. And they were more productive, and I thought that was crazy. And that kind of reminds me, I love The Office.

I don't know if you watch the show. Who doesn't? It's so good.

But Michael talking about Jim to the camera, he's like, I mean, he's just he's not very good at things. I can spend a whole day on a project, and he'll finish in 20 minutes. Yes, but that's exactly it.

It's exactly it. And because I mean, the vast, vast majority of desk jobs, there is at least an hour or so every day where you're just doing whatever, shuffling papers around, reading. Right?

Reading your news on your phone or something. On Twitter, pointing to myself. And you know what?

That's only because you feel some sort of existential obligation to just be sitting at your desk and being at work, but what is work? It should just be the task at hand. Agreed.

And I think that's something that as entrepreneurs, I have to constantly check in with myself because I'm not a morning person. Same, oh my god, wait. And the guilt.

I have such respect for you, and now you've validated a life choice that I'm not a morning person. Tell me more. Yes, so I don't like to get up at 7:00 and be to work at 8:00.

Me either. I don't work well that at that time. I'm actually most productive between noon and 4:00 PM.

Yes, same. Those are my crazy good hours, right? And I still struggle with it.

But recently, this year, I don't set an alarm unless I have to, and I let myself wake up on my own because I wake up between 8:00 and 9:00. That's just when I wake up because I don't go to bed at 1:00 in the morning or 2:00 in the morning, which is fine if you do. Everybody's different.

But I'm trying to work with my brain instead of against it. And I think that this guilt that I have associated with well, I need to work from 8:00 to 5:00, 8:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 6:00. Did I put in enough hours?

I'm exhausted by myself. Because we do creative work, too, and if I do two hours of intense creative work, that's all my brain can do that day, and that's OK. So it's like permissions.

It's OK, no guilt. I'm so into this. I'm so into this.

I get up every day at 8:30 AM. I take the 9:15 train. I walk all the way to the end of the train where I get a completely empty car because it's past the morning commute hour, and the front end of the train is always empty.

My commute is so pleasant and so quiet. And I get to work just before 10:00 AM, usually at 9:50 AM every day, often the last person, but who cares. That's when I do my best work.

And I leave it like 5:30 every day. That's perfect. It's the best life in the world.

And the thing is that I have told people, like everyone in the office, I'm like, if you like to come in at 7:00 and leave at 3:00, have at it. If you want to come in at 10:00 and leave at 6:00, I don't care. Just everyone should lean into what allows them to do their best work.

And that's the best thing because you're working with your brain instead of against it because there are three types of cycles. And I'm sure there's other variations within it, but some people are morning people. They do their best work between like, let's say, 5:00 AM and 8:00 AM or something, and then it's all downhill from there.

So those people should be in the office at those times. Then there's people like us. We're middle-of-the-day-ers, Which arguably, I think it does work to our advantage with regular jobs because we're already there.

We're at the office working during those times. And then there's night owls, people do their best work between 6:00 PM and midnight or something. There's these different waves.

And I think instead of trying to squish a square peg into round hole, we should just say, hey, I work better at these times, so I'm going to do this this way. Yeah, no, I get that. I used to be a true night owl, especially with writing.

Yes. But it's just hard to be in society. That makes it really difficult to be in society, have relationships, I don't know, engage with people.

I have a friend that worked nights that I was friends with back when I lived in Paris, and he worked at a hotel in the overnight shift. And I was freelancing and doing my work at night, and you kind of just inherently become unhinged. We'd meet for our morning coffee at 4:00 in the afternoon, and we'd be like, how are you, you know?

I'm like, OK, we're officially kind of losing our minds. Shout out to Damien. I'm not sure where he is these days.

All right, what is the toughest thing about being a therapist, and how do you manage it? The toughest, that's tricky. I think there's two.

I'll give you two because there's two sides to it. So the toughest thing is having a regular life, like going on vacations and stuff when you have patients is very difficult because you want to be there for them, but you also have to have healthy boundaries and have your own life. And so that balance of that I find to be very difficult and just tricky, you know?

And also with that, I guess hearing people's horrible things that have happened to them can sometimes be hard. I've gotten better at focusing on the good, and like I believe in the good in people, even though sometimes people can be total garbage. And so yeah, so there's that component of it, but then there's the component of being a therapist and people assuming things about you because you're a therapist.

For instance, this is just a random one. I was on a podcast. This was probably like six months ago.

And the woman who has this podcast was on The Bachelorette, and she's also a therapist. And people had a big problem with her being on The Bachelorette and being a therapist, like how dare you? And she's like, what?

I can't first of all, want to make money, second of all, want to find love? I'm in my late 20s. Get out of my business.

And I found that very interesting. And since I had a conversation with her, I've been noticing people's assumptions about me, certain things that it's not OK. I got a tattoo.

People are like, a therapist with a tattoo? Tell us about the tattoo. Oh, it's my tree.

Back in the day, my little tree intro for my videos, it's like diddly-diddly-doo. And I got it on my ribs over here. Love that.

And it's because it changed my life. And I loved it, and I wanted it. And that's also just me as a person, take it or leave it.

I hear rib tattoos are super painful. Not to say like, oh, I manage pain really well because I feel like a lot of people say that, but I didn't think it was that bad, and everybody was like, that's the worst. I don't have a ton of tattoos.

I really don't know. I manage pain really badly. So does my husband.

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's different.

I'm like, no thanks. Yeah, you're like ow, no. No, no, no.

We double dose me up on the local anesthesia. Yeah, right? Numb it up.

Numb it up. Let's do it. So anyway, I think those are the two most difficult things is thinking a therapist is only one thing.

When I say the word therapist, I'm sure people already put together a picture of what that would mean. Yeah, I'm like such a petty person. I'm like, I wanted my therapist to look like a therapist.

Of course. Yeah. I mean, and I wear very business attire when I go to the office.

I would like that. Always wear close-toes high-heeled shoes. I don't know, it's just a thing.

Do your patients call you Kati or Dr. Morton? Kati, yeah, Kati because I'm not a doctor.

Yeah. I think they all call me Kati. Mrs.

Morton sometimes, which is very strange. It makes me feel like I'm a teacher. I'm very into the Doctor blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. For me, it's like a nice boundary. I'm like, you're not a person.

You're a doctor. Which is fair. And you're also paying for expertise, so you're like, OK doctor, you tell me.

You prescribe to me what to do. I accidentally called him Matthew, and I was like, that's so deeply inappropriate. I'm sorry that I did that.

You felt like you'd crossed a boundary? Yeah, it was weird. I was like, oh, no.

But you like it that way. That's what you kind of prefer. Yeah, because I feel like everyone seeks a different thing out of therapy, right?

And this is wild speculation, and you can tell me if this is totally off base, but I feel like some people who lack really stable, secure, loving, giving, empathetic relationships in their life, a lot of times what they really get out of a therapist is that kind of interaction, is that kind of communication. And I am very lucky that I have so many of those relationships in my life. I'm like, I got it up to here with the empathetic, unconditional love.

I'm here to work, you know what I'm saying? And I want it to feel in some ways like an internist, like a doctor, doctor, you know what I'm saying? And that's fair.

I think that's why it's important find a therapist that fits you. Yeah. I'm the same, by the way, it my therapy.

Yeah? Nice. I almost want like a drill sergeant to be like, stop messing this up.

I told you last time. Mine doesn't do that, by the way. No, that'd be weird.

We don't. It's really rude. But sometimes I want her to call me on my shit.

You need to tell me. Yeah. And so that's what I want, but some people do need more of the unconditional positive regard we call it the therapy space.

So it's like, I'm always empathetic, understanding. It's a holding environment. I don't want that, no.

Because yeah, I feel like you're similar. You want to feel like you're being challenged and maybe seen in a way that you normally don't let yourself be seen. Exactly, yeah.

I totally am with that. But I also feel like it's funny because I think a lot of people, when they think about therapy who have never been to therapy, I think they have an image of it that's very antiquated because it's often from film and TV or from things from a long time ago or Freudian therapy, all that kind of stuff. And I think people don't realize that there's now just such a wide spectrum available of the types of therapy you can seek and even within those types, the types of therapist you can have.

Yeah. And I want to shout out, you have a couple of videos that describe all the differences of the types of therapists, the types of therapy, and what might be right for you, highly recommend checking them out. Yeah, because there's so many acronyms that we use in the therapy world, but nobody knows what those mean.

Right. Like when I said CBD in DBT, I'm sure some people were like, CBT? That sounds familiar.

That weed oil? Right? Oh, that's CBD.

But that's the thing is there's too many acronyms in our world. Right, there are. Yeah, so I decode that and talk about that.

Yeah. And I find that helpful. Yeah, it taught me that a psychiatrist is often most beneficial for people who are looking, for example, to take medications.

Yes, yes. Which I, of course, support medication for those who need it. But when I take a medication in the past, it's been for sleep, and I really did not like that experience at all.

Now I'm like, I want to do everything I can to change my life so as to not take medication. Yeah, and you should try things first. Totally.

Because I feel like medication isn't needed for everyone. And if you can do the work in therapy and try to figure out sort out what's keeping you up, then maybe we can do it without, but it's there if you need it. It's a lifeline.

There if you need it. I agree. How do you handle budget conversations as a couple with very different emotions and very different net worths?

I think when it comes to relationships and money, it's important that we have ongoing conversations as things shift. And you can chime in on this, too. Because I really think that complete candor about spending habits and how much you make and stuff, if you're living together, if your finances are entangled, then you need to be able to talk about it in a real way.

Right. And I know that that's really uncomfortable. I don't know if it's the era of this, but it's probably going on since I was a kid.

But I don't tell them I did this, and I have my own moneys that I hide away to be able to buy. You just need to be honest about it because there's no shame in spending money on jeans if you wanted them or going out to a fancy meal. You're going to have to communicate about it in a real way.

I have a friend who has this where she doesn't make very much money, and her husband makes a lot of money. And they've had some struggles with it because of the power dynamic associated with that and her decision to want to go on vacation, and him being like, I'm not paying for that. Don't like that language.

No. And I really think that what has to happen is you have to be honest about what you're making and what you're spend every month and what you're both comfortable with when it comes to budgeting for vacations, clothing, dinners out, and then you stick to that budget. Because as long as you've agreed on it and your money's entangled together, then it's like, you are making decisions together to spend it this way.

Right. And then if you are having issues kind of like my friend was having where I'm not going to pay for that and I'm not doing that, then you need to be in therapy because there's a bigger issue going on here where it's more about the money equals something different than money. It's a power move.

It's a control thing. And as a therapist, I'd be very interested to understand what is making them feel out of control that they need to try to take that back. Right.

Or what do they feel like they don't have control over in the relationship, or do they not feel like they have any power in the relationship? How are you talking to one another? I could really get into it because then that's in my wheelhouse, like relationship talk and stuff like that.

Yeah, I totally agree with all of that. I think A, number one, the person who has the financial upper hand needs to go out of their way at every turn to counteract that inherent power imbalance. It needs to be an active thing.

If you ever feel that your partner's higher net worth or higher income is a point of leverage, of shame, of guilt, of control, that's an enormous red flag. We've done several videos on that. It's a terrible, toxic relationship.

It's incredibly toxic. And there should never be a dynamic in which the person who earns more money expects from you more, for example, domestic tasks. Oh yes.

That is extremely important. Because ultimately, who does what task domestically, you both live there. You're both dirty dishes.

You both wear clothes. You're both mess up the bed. You can't suddenly say that because the person earns less money, they're also de facto the domestic person, particularly when that person also works a full-time job.

That's the thing. If you have more hours, you're at home more, you could pick up more, but that shouldn't be this tit-for-tat thing. No, and it should be a very clear, collective decision that you're making as a couple about the division of labor.

But oftentimes, that's not the case, and it's oftentimes very easy to slip into a dynamic of I have more money, therefore it is my call. Always have separate accounts with some fun money, even if you're both earning the exact same amount. You should have money outside of your joint accounts.

You should have money that is just for you to do with as you please that is not subject to committee that you can feel good about. You don't have to ask for permission. Because honestly, not every purchase should have to go through your partner.

And also your partner does want to sign off on every dumb purchase you're making. They don't need to know that you wanted a new pair of socks and you bought new earrings. That's not necessary.

I don't need to know. I've mentioned this before, but he loves buying board games, reading all the instructions, opening it up, setting up all the pieces, assembling it, thinking about it, and then putting it away and never playing it. He'll occasionally, once a year, he'll play it with someone.

But he very much just loves having a lot of board games. That's OK. And god bless him.

Yeah. But I don't want to be a part of those decisions. You don't need to know.

And I don't need to know. That's like Sean with camera equipment and guitar stuff. There you go.

I'm like, no thanks. I don't need to know about it. No, or me and throw pillows.

Yeah, same. I have that throw pillow, that green one from West Elm, I have it. It totally switches the whole look of a room.

It changes everything. But Marc's like, oh yay, another ugly allergen. No, he likes my throw pillows.

But in any case, he would never buy them, and I don't want to put him in the position of feeling like he has to authorize the purchase. And what about this one or this one? Or this one's $60.

Do you think that's too much? He's like, I don't have an opinion on the throw pillows. So anyway, it's funny, if I'm ever out for a week on the video, the comments will be like, did Chelsea drown in her throw pillows finally?

But all that to say, you need to have some independence. But when it comes to a joint account, and this is maybe a less universal, more sort of my own opinion. But I think that anytime, when you have a joint account, money that goes into that joint account or in those joint investments or what have you, that is automatically, legally it's automatically as much your partner's as it is yours, unless you have some kind of pre-nup going on.

But ethically, philosophically, it should be shared. Yes. So if you are feeding into that account, even if your husband is putting in $10,000 and you $2,000 every month or vise versa, that $12,000 is both of yours equally.

Yeah, it's your family money. Yeah. That's the way Sean and I look at it is like it's our money.

It's not mine versus his. And I feel like the less language we can create in a relationship of mine versus his or hers, the better because it's just dividing you more. The worst moments that I've ever had with my husband about money have been when we got territorial about contributions to things.

Yes. And we always then the next day will come back and be like, I'm sorry. Same with Sean and I.

When we were dating, not married, we lived together, we would do this end-of-the-month tally of who owed who what. It was horrible. That sucks.

But we didn't want to mingle money together. We honestly just stopped doing it, and we were so much happier. Oh yeah.

I think some people, they want to go their whole lives and they get the pre-nup that supports this, but they want to go their whole lives with totally separate finances. I know. And that's your choice.

And if both of you are really into that and down with it, you have every right to make it-- Well, if it works. --and if it works for you. But I think for most people, that feeling is such an easier route to resentment and judgment and counting pennies. Counting pennies.

And one of the main issues, and I wrote about this in my book but I do it with couples all the time, is no laundry listing. You can't keep a list of I did this, they did that. Totally.

That's just not going to work. That's only going to cause more issues and more fights. Right.

And the same goes with money. You can't count your pennies and think that then you're going to feel happy and healthy with them later. It becomes a weird dynamic.

It becomes like a business talk, not a relationship conversation. Yeah, it doesn't it come from enough empathy. Although, I will say, it happened recently, Marc got me a gift that I was like, oh no.

Like, this was way too much. Like, I don't want this, you know what I'm saying? And I was a little nervous at first.

I was like, oh, he got this really nice gift, and he was really excited to give it to me. But our finances are shared, and I was like, I would rather put that money elsewhere. But once you have that really open, honest communication about money, in a different time of my life, I would have just bit my tongue and been like, OK, I guess I have this thing now instead of the money that I would rather have.

But I was very candid, and I was like, for me, that's too much for this item, and I don't feel comfortable with our money being spent that way. And to his credit, he was very cool about it and very understanding. But if we did not have a very open, very empathetic relationship around money and our money and what we want to do with it, I never would have felt empowered to say that.

Yeah, you would have felt like you just had to deal with it. It's good to speak up, and it's good to talk about it more because now he knows that, too. It's a learning, too, otherwise you could've been setting yourself up for years of that kind of stuff.

Oh yeah, I know multiple women who have received engagement rings that were ludicrously expensive. I have a girlfriend-- I'll never name her, of course-- but her engagement ring was $16,000. Jeez Louise.

And she was not a part of that financial decision. They weren't even engaged, obviously, at that time when he purchased that, but she was like, I would have rather he put that toward his student loans. Oh, he has student loans?

Oh no, oh no. Massive student loans. Oh no.

I know, and I was like, girl, you have got to say something. And right away, the sooner the better. The sooner the better, like you just can't.

But that's such a particular and touchy thing. They juice men up about it. They do, as if it really matters.

Some ego, like it shows how much they love you or it shows how much they make. It's all ridiculous. Oh my god, the numbers that people throw out, they're like, it should be three months of your salary.

Who is paying that money for that? Yeah. It is interesting because I had a friend too that her boyfriend, they're now married, but her boyfriend at the time had brought her a huge Prada purse.

Oh no. And he couldn't afford it, but we didn't know this at the time. And then for Christmas, he got her the wallet, the matching wallet for it.

And she had said something. I don't know what even brought it up, but she learned that he had put both of those on a credit card, and he was going to make payments on it and she promptly was like where did you get these? I need to return it then.

We need to take this wallet back. I don't need this. But I was like, you need to talk about it right away.

Totally. Because if that's his idea of how money can be spent and what's OK, then to need to nip it in the bud. You're getting a lot of Prada bags.

Yeah, and potentially secret credit card debt or something. Oh my god, the conversation with Marc about this gift, because first and foremost, I was like, this seems like a little over-the-top for me. But I was trying it on.

I was like, I'm going to be a good sport or whatever. I was like, you have to tell me how much she spent on this. And he told me, and I was like, oh hell no.

Hell no. We are going back to the store right now this minute. I was itching.

I was like, get this out of my house. We could do so much other stuff with that money. Yeah, with that money, yeah.

But they really juice men up that the gifts and the jewellery and all that stuff is like immediately how much they love you. It plays into that power role of men have to make more money, have to spend more money. You know, but gifts are not everyone's love language, and they're not mine.

It's not mine. Gifts, I mean, I like a gift. But I would I would so much rather that an equivalent amount of money be spent on a trip, for example.

Oh same. Because shared activities, that's my love language. My love language is acts of service, I'm not going to lie.

That's my number one and then shared activities. Oh my god, twins. OK.

I always make a stupid noise. So it is our rapid fire question. We've come to that time.

OK. So get ready to get honest about your money life. OK, that's fine.

I like that noise, by the way. What is the big financial secret of your industry, being psychology? Oh, financial secret, that's a hard rapid fire question.

I think that therapists make a lot of money because we actually don't. What's the average income? $55,000. What?

And what about for psychologists? $60,000, I believe, and the numbers change every year, and I'm not up to date on 2019 even. This is like 2018 or 2017 was last time I looked. But yeah, I didn't actually get my doctorate because it didn't mean that I would make that much more, and I would spend that much more on education.

Holy crap. What? My therapist charges $150 to $250 an hour.

Where's that money going? He's a psychologist. Taxes, think of all the things, your overhead costs of office and health insurance and things.

And private practice can make more, but then when you take vacation, you don't make money. And that's averages, too, right? Right.

I'm in Santa Monica. You're in New York. Those are both super wealthy areas.

I'm sure therapists are making more, but the average is still, yeah, not very much. I've seen the kind of clothes he wears. I think he's doing better for himself than average.

He might be doing better. Hey, some people are business people, too, they're better at it, but they don't teach us that in school. Yeah, no, they should.

He has a splashy office, though, I'd say. It's nice. He has a wall of books.

It feels trustworthy. What do you invest in versus what are you cheap about? I invest in furniture.

Oh, interesting, Nice. I invest in travel. I like trips.

Me too. I don't know if that's an investment, but I see it as an investment. And things I'm really frugal about are, I mean, so many things.

Like clothing, I get it on eBay or this is Rent the Runway. We got a lot of Rent the Runway in here. Well, they had a good deal for Black Friday, so I did three months at a discount and then I promptly canceled and set a reminder so that I don't get charged the full amount.

Woah, we love scamming the system here at TFD to save ourselves a little money. Yeah, because they think they're going to make money off of my laziness or my forgetting. Once that trial's done, so is Kati Morton.

Exactly. What has been your best investment and why? My best investment, there's a couple.

So I invested in our couch. I know it's furniture, but it's a couch. How much was your couch? $2,000.

Woah, where's it from? Crate and Barrel or West Elm? Nice.

I think West Elm. Anyway, I love it. It's comfortable.

It's the size we wanted. It's the shape we wanted. We live on it.

It's amazing. Nice. I bought a purse, and invest is a strong word when it comes to purses from me because I know relative to other people, this is not very much, but I spent $150 on it.

I'm going to out myself as being flashy, but I feel like that's not expected for a purse. It's not much. But I got it on eBay, and it's a nice brand, and it has lasted years.

What is the brand? It's Rebecca Minkoff. Nice.

My husband's friend's wife is like a purse buyer for Rebecca Minkoff, like a purse seller or whatever. Apparently I've got the purse hook up now. I'm very excited because her bags are really cute.

They're really cute. They're simple. They go with everything.

I like it. And these shoes, actually. Minkoff?

Rag and Bone but I got them on eBay again. That's just me. I'm a pretty frugal person.

I love that. But it was a good investment, $150, that's a lot for shoes for me. I'm super cheap.

I love that. That's great. I like a good deal.

What has been your biggest money mistake and why? Oh, student loans. People either say that was their best investment or their biggest money mistake, without fail.

I could have gone to community college. I mean, the experience is worth it, but came out of school-- You went to Pepperdine? Yes, and I was on scholarship.

So in undergrad, I only paid $16,000 a year, opposed to, if you guys don't realize, it was $36,000 a year when I went in, and it was $44,000 when I left. So I left all of schools with scholarships. I applied to every scholarship.

I did as much as I could to be budget-friendly but almost $100,000 in debt. Oh my god. So don't do it.

Don't do it. It's not worth it. What is your biggest current money insecurity?

I mean, I don't know if this is answering the question properly but just the future because YouTube is so ohh. And we'd like to buy a home. Because of where we live, it's very expensive to buy any kind of property.

I'm sure you understand in New York. And so I'm hoping that things continue to grow so that we can do that. Nice.

What has been the financial habit that has helped you the most? It's gotta be frugality? I guess yeah, it's my love of a good deal.

Love that. I don't mind hunting for a good item and waiting for it to go on sale. My mom says, only a fool pays retail.

Yeah, I think so, too. This is my actually a splurge item too on eBay because I Rent the Runwayed one and loved it so much. I was like, I'm going to buy my own.

I'm going to wait, and all the winter stuff was on sale in summer and vice versa, summer and winter. So I buy things out of season. I got this long wool Vince jacket for $200.

Wow. That's like a $700 jacket, and I've gotten so many compliments. Whenever I wear it, people are like, where'd you get that?

And I'm like, eBay. I love that. And last question, when did you first feel "successful," quote unquote, and what does that word mean to you?

Oh god, I don't know if I felt that way. Maybe writing a book? I think when the book came out, that felt very surreal.

Holding a book is a big moment. Yeah, like I created this. Like, I don't have children, but I birthed it from my brain.

For those listening, we're both doing the birth canal gesture at the same time. It's true. It's so true.

Well, thank you, Kati. It has been a pleasure. We always love to have you on TFD.

You're always welcome. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Where can people find more of you? Just Kati Morton. I have a YouTube channel, I've got social media, and I have a book, Are You OK?

A Guide to Caring for Your Mental Health. Love that. No E on Kati.

Oh no. K-A-T-I. Well, thank you guys, and we will see you next Monday.

Bye. So we talked a lot about how to manage the bigger picture moments of your life today. And one of the things that you will want anytime you are going into a bigger picture moment with your money is to have that next-level view of your financial health.

Obviously, Mint is amazing for managing all of your day-to-day finances and your budget and that kind of thing, your spending in various categories, what have you. But ultimately, your finances should serve toward bigger goals for when you're going to do things like maybe take out a loan or buy a home or make a very large purchase, and you're going to want that more nuanced view of your financial health. So a great companion app to Mint is an app called Turbo, which is also totally free, made by Inuit.

And basically, Turbo gives you that next-level look at all of the various indicators of your financial health, things like your net worth, your debt-to-income ratio, your credit utilization ratio, your credit score, and all of the various details you'll need to know in order to improve those metrics so that you're more credit worthy, you can get better rates on lending, and you're just generally in a really healthy financial place. Once you've mastered the day-to-day habits and spending, you'll want to level up. And Turbo is the app that allows you to do it, and it's totally free.

So check out Turbo at the link in our description or the show notes to get started today.