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SciShow, "Sex Research: SciShow Talk Show.", December 6, 2017, YouTube, 43:08, https://youtube.com/watch?v=J9u9kPJDais. |
This week on SciShow Talk Show, Dr. Lindsey Doe sexplains to Hank some of the difficulties in conducting sex research and discusses the past leaders of the field. Later, Jessi from Animal Wonders drops by with Stumpy the Dumpy Tree Frog.
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Hosted by: Hank Green
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Dooblydoo thanks go to the following Patreon supporters: Kelly Landrum Jones, Sam Lutfi, Kevin Knupp, Nicholas Smith, Inerri, D.A. Noe, alexander wadsworth, سلطان الخليفي, Piya Shedden, KatieMarie Magnone, Scott Satovsky Jr, Bella Nash, Charles Southerland, Bader AlGhamdi, James Harshaw, Patrick Merrithew, Patrick D. Ashmore, Candy, Tim Curwick, charles george, Saul, Mark Terrio-Cameron, Viraansh Bhanushali, Kevin Bealer, Philippe von Bergen, Chris Peters, Justin Lentz
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Dooblydoo thanks go to the following Patreon supporters: Kelly Landrum Jones, Sam Lutfi, Kevin Knupp, Nicholas Smith, Inerri, D.A. Noe, alexander wadsworth, سلطان الخليفي, Piya Shedden, KatieMarie Magnone, Scott Satovsky Jr, Bella Nash, Charles Southerland, Bader AlGhamdi, James Harshaw, Patrick Merrithew, Patrick D. Ashmore, Candy, Tim Curwick, charles george, Saul, Mark Terrio-Cameron, Viraansh Bhanushali, Kevin Bealer, Philippe von Bergen, Chris Peters, Justin Lentz
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(00:00) to (02:00)
(Intro)
Hank: Hello. In this SciShow Talk Show with Dr. Doe, something happened with the sound recorded in the first half, so we had to rely on the camera audio, just the mic that's built into the camera, and that is not high quality. Our apologies for that, but we didn't wanna like, throw the whole episode away, because it's good, so here's this conversation with Lindsey. Luckily, the second half sounds great, so you have that to look forward to. Thank you and enjoy.
Hey there. Welcome to SciShow Talk Show. It's that day on SciShow where we talk to interesting people about interesting stuff and today, we're talking to clinical sexologist Dr. Lindsey Doe.
Lindsey: Yeah.
H: Hi.
L: Hi.
H: Of Sexplanations, a YouTube channel that we help produce.
L: Yeah, and Sexplanations the podcast that you help produce.
H: I did. I was just a guest.
L: Which is fantastic.
H: Where we talked about numbers things. A great number of things. We went--we ranged far. But one of the things we talked about was the fact that we don't necessarily do a ton of research on sex in our world.
L: Right.
H: Which seems like, you know, sex is pretty important. It's how all of us exist and also just a fairly important part of peoples' day to day lives.
L: Yes.
H: It's an important method of disease transmission, it's an important method of happiness creation, and of, you know, close intimacy relationships and--
L: Reproduction.
H: Yeah, also, you know, having human beings, still.
L: Exactly.
H: Which, you know, maybe if you're not in favor of that, but I am.
L: They're still (?~1:42)
H: I like humans a lot.
L: Yeah.
H: That's not what I--I meant people who are not in favor of any more humans on Earth at all, which is a viewpoint I have encountered.
L: Yeah.
H: I'm a huge fan of people and I think that there should be plenty. I don't know if we should have the amount we have.
L: Yeah, I would say, I'm a fan of people, but I'm a bigger fan of the planet.
(02:00) to (04:00)
H: Oh, I disagree. I think that the Earth without humans is very interesting but not nearly as interesting. I really don't--I really like people, man.
L: Big questions here on SciShow Talk Show.
H: Yeah. Should humans exist? Leave your comments in the (?~2:18) below. Oh, I like humans. It seems to me like this is a thing that we should study a lot. You study sex and have--
L: Yes. You wanna hear about that?
H: Yeah, sure.
L: So when I was in graduate school, which was around 2003, one of my earliest experiences with the lack of funding toward sex research and the incredible amount of hurdles that are set up, (?~2:46) for that was my master's thesis. It's titled Phenomenological Claim of First Sexual Intercourse Experiences Among Individuals of Varied Levels of Sexual Self-Disclosure. The reason why it was so long is because when you're doing research connected with a university or college, you have to go through what's called the IRB or the Institutional Review Board, and they take a proposal, in my case it was 30 pages, it's usually around 10, but because I was working with human subjects, because I was talking to them about their sexualities, which at the time was a very sensitive subject, my proposal was much longer and I had to explain every question that I was asking them, what I was going to do with the data, how it was protected, et cetera. For my classmates that were handing in much smaller and less comprehensive proposals, they would get theirs approved by the IRB round one. Mine took three rounds to go through and even then, I have, you know, all of this research planned out, but now I have to get participants so comparison, you have the--in my program, you have exercise science students and health (?~3:56) students. They were able to acquire, you know, Psychology 101 students easy access, right, to these huge pools of participants.
(04:00) to (06:00)
H: Sure. I mean, this is a general problem that there is in human research, where if you would like to study people of a broad range of sort of, you know, experiences, ages, socioeconomic status, it's a lot easier if you would like to study, you know, 18-22 year old college students.
L: Right.
H: 'Cause they're accessible and they're--have free time, whereas if you want to be talking to a lot of different people who are like, so that's a very well studied population.
L: Except for sex.
H: Even in sex.
L: Right, because, so, my study ended up becoming what's a called a phenomenology, where you study the phenomena of something, you know, of a much smaller subject group because it was so difficult for me to find participants.
H: People just didn't want to sign up?
L: Right.
H: Even if it was anonymous, even if it was--
L: Right. So I had eight participants, two pilot participants.
H: Yeah.
L: That is--so the whole research study got changed because that's all I could access, and then from those eight participants, I wanted them all to have really high levels of self-disclosure because I want them to be able to tell me about their first sexual intercourse experiences, but I wasn't able to access eight high-disclosure and so that's where you get the part of my thesis title which is 'Varied Levels of Sexual Self-Disclosure' so, so many barriers!
H: Right, and you're also just gonna have selection bias toward people who are more comfortable talking about that stuff, which is going to be maybe a different (?~5:36) data from that. I do see why it's hard. I see, especially now, like, especially if it's like, of course, like, you have to get people to actually talk about it.
L: Yeah.
H: And you can't just be like, so uh, I'm gonna check your personal history and here's uh, here's the first sex you ever had and how it went and why and how and it was all written down.
L: (?~5:58) couldn't do that.
H: Yeah, no, but it's all locked up inside.
(06:00) to (08:00)
L: Yeah. So you wanna hear the history of some of these problems?
H: Sure.
L: And some of my favorite sex researchers who just pushed through the barriers?
H: Okay.
L: Okay. So one of the very first outlets for sexologists to kind of communicate with one another was a journal that was published in 1926.
H: Okay.
L: And then you have the Institut Fur Sexualwissenschaft, which is the German name for the Institute of Sexology.
H: Okay.
L: And this accumulated thousands of artifacts, volumes of research, photographs, art, et cetera. But then the Nazis came along and in three years of them being in power, so 1933-1936, they burned the entire insitute down and all of the artifacts. Supposedly some were rescued though, and they have been preserved in San Francisco. So then, from there, you have a lot of taboo around the subject, not a lot of access to materials, but Kinsey, Alfred Kinsey, comes along. He has been studying (?~7:11) wasps for his whole biological career and he starts meeting with students who have no idea how their anatomy and physiology works in terms of reproduction, and so he shifts to start teaching a course on human sexuality, but you can only take it if you are married.
H: Wow.
L: Yeah.
H: Kinsey has always fascinated me because it was like, he did this research and he found that like, a huge of variety of sexual experiences, but I--I was always like, how did he get that information out of people? Like, how do you talk to a person in a time when homosexuality is extraordinarily taboo and find out that so many of these people have had homosexual experiences?
L: I think people love talking about sex. It's just--
H: You gotta--
L: Giving them that permission to do it and establishing rapport so that they feel safe with you as whatever person who is recording things, right.
(08:00) to (10:00)
Eve Ensler put together what's called The Vagina Monologues, which are a collection of monologues based on her interviews she did, and she has one where she's talking to an older woman and the woman is huffy, like, why, you shouldn't be asking me these questions, this isn't polite, and then she gets to talk for the first time about how when she became aroused, there was this huge flood of liquid that came out and she hasn't ever told anyone about this and she's afraid to be sexual and that she hasn't been, and then in her 70s, she, post-interview, goes back and masturbates for the first time and has an orgasm. It was really exciting. So I think that when people are invited to have those conversations, then they're all about it. Right, you like talking about sex. We can talk about sex for hours.
H: Yeah, but I'm a pretty open dude, though, like, I, you know, I had--I feel like I've had the trajectory that allowed that. I feel like a lot of people, especially in Kinsey's time, did not. Like, it's taboo now, but way more taboo then. But I guess, you know, if you establish that rapport and you make the--make it very clear that this is not something that's gonna leave this office, yeah, I think people do like, actually intend to oftentimes like to talk about it.
L: Yeah, so they did.
H: It does make it difficult to research.
L: Yeah.
H: If people aren't, and like, it's not like, I mean, tell me how many times you exercise a day? 'Cause I like, you try to find research on like, how much sex do people have, and it's like, mehh.
L: Uh, yeah, it's true, it's very hard for me to find stats on how often people are masturbating, how often people are having oral sex, how often people are having same sex relationsh--yeah.
H: Yeah.
L: It's very difficult.
H: Are there barriers to funding that research in it like--?
L: Yeah.
H: But why?
L: Kinsey's research was just cut, like it was, game over.
(10:00) to (12:00)
H: Sure, but that's then. Like, 2017, now, is it still like, is it still that hard to get funding for this research, 'cause it seems like really important things to know about our society.
L: The research about sex either exists because sex is some sort of problem and we need to understand what is causing this infection or how do we stop young people from early onset intercourse, and so it's a problem-solving research.
H: Early onset intercourse is an interesting way of saying that.
L: Having sex for the first time, early.
H: Yeah.
L: Or it's about behaviors and pleasure, et cetera, and that is definitely not funded. Well, who would fund it?
H: I don't know.
L: Who would fund--
H: Who funds just knowing things like, that's--a lot of the research that we do does not necessarily have an end, we just want to know more about the world.
L: We, on the podcast, talked about how to have sex in space. Where is the funding to send Dr. Doe into space so that she can have sex?
H: Is this been the end of this entire conversation? It's like, look, there's not enough research being done into this and no one's funding the important sex studies, like sending me to space and someone else for me to have sex with.
L: Or I think my bigger resentment is that biosex females can experience what's called ejaculation, squirting, surging, et cetera, right, like there's a gush of clear liquid that comes out some of their bodies, and there's all this really crappy research that's done that's like, oh, it's beer piss, it's from drinking too much alcohol, or it's because you're hyperhydrated or it's really just urine and it's so sad to me, because you have entire generations of people that are insecure about their bodies and their experiences because no one is out there willing to do the scientific collection of data so that we have actual answers.
H: Yeah, it's strange, but I guess understandable to think that like, we still have social taboos standing in the way of understanding physiology, particularly female sexual physiology, and we think that like, we think we, you know, we're super progressive and like, science isn't held back by social taboos, but it totally is.
(12:00) to (14:00)
L: It totally is. The researchers that (?~12:19), wanna hear them?
H: Sure.
L: Okay. On the subject of Kinsey, he was curious about what was going on and trying to understand sexuality so that he and his team, called the "inner circle" could be better researchers, and they would all actually have sex together in his attic, so there were other men on his team, and so it would be them and partners and his wife and they'd all engage in sexual activity together.
H: Wow.
L: For research! For science!
H: Whoever got the clipboard job was just like, okay.
L: Yeah.
H: Pull the clipboard key.
L: Well, they videotaped it too.
H: Oh, okay.
L: At least, that's how the story goes. Then there's Havelock Ellis, who you're familiar with, because you had to roleplay him in a Sexplanations episode.
H: I did.
L: And he was having nocturnal emissions, right, wet dreams, and he did his own research there to figure out whether or not he was gonna die, like the medical field had told him. Think fast, pretty incredible.
H: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're being told like, that he basically, what you say in the video, is he was documenting his demise.
L: Yeah.
H: Like he thought he was like, well, I guess I'll do research on myself if I'm gonna die of this disease that I have. Wet dreams that I'll, you know, keep track, as I decline to the grave, then he was like, I feel okay. I've been doing this for years now and I'm super not dead. Became a sex researcher. Good job, dude.
L: Good job, dude. You also know about one of my favorites, Antonie Van Leeuwenhoek, who made one of the first microscopes and in that, he had spermatozoa, which I think is incredible.
H: Yeah, like, the first thing is like, I made a microscope. The first thing I'm gonna do, I'm gonna look at blood, I'm gonna look at sperm.
(14:00) to (16:00)
H: - made a microscope. First thing I'm gonna do, I'm gonna look at blood, and I'm gonna look at sperm.
L: Ta-dah!
H: Yeah, I mean, why not. The two easiest fluids to access.
L: Produce fluid! Along those lines, there is a sperm psychologist named Dr. Joanna Ellington, and she did some of the coolest research. So, she was going to have a tubal ligation, where you go into the body and the fallopian tube you can either tie it, cut it -
H: - clamp it.
L: - clamp it, etc. And so, she knew she was going to have this procedure done, so beforehand, she had sex, and then she waited a period of time, and when she went under - before she went under - she asked the surgeon to cut out a chunk of her fallopian tube so that she could put it under a microscope and count exactly how many sperm from the 250,000, initially, made it all the way to the fallopian tube. It was under ten. That's so cool to me! [H laughs] Right?
H: Yeah, it's not an easy journey.
L: No. And we wouldn't know things like that because no one's funding her to do that; she's just committed to the science herself and willing to have sex prior to a tubal ligation! [H laughs] What dedication!
H: And also, like, "I want you to deliver me a piece of my body to me so I can put it under a microscope." Pretty cool.
L: It is.
H: Why not just do that over and over again, because you only have that one data point?
L: Yeah, why not. Because nobody is funding it.
H: I mean, that sounds like an awesome study to fund, and you guys have to have people like, "Sign this form before you do tubal ligation; we would like to harvest a sample from your body. This won't effect anything else." And then, just a little microscope time, and we have more than one data point.
L: "Hank Green Sex Research Institute?"
H: [reaches for wallet] Here, I got it. [L laughs] Not much, got, like - forty bucks. How much does it cost to get a bunch of fallopian tubes?
L: [laughing] Definitely only forty bucks. Last one we should probably talk about - well, we can talk -
(16:00) to (18:00)
L: - talk about - well, we can talk about my commitment to science, too, but - John Money [chyron: "Dr. John Money, 1921-2006] is famous for really looking at "nature versus nurture."
He was a psychologist, he is a psychologist, and this baby boy was-, his penis was botched during the circumcision, and so the parents took this baby, Bruce, to John Money and he said, "Oh, well you can actually raise him, nurture him to be a girl, and so we'll just take off the penis and do some reconstruction so that it looks like a vulva, and you can raise him as 'Brenda.'"
A lot of how sex research goes is that there's trial and error, there's using your own body or your own sexual experiences as the model from which you launch from. And so, he did this, and what ended up happening is that this young person - who was being raised as a girl - hated their life, and didn't understand, and felt the gender dysphoria that we know now exists.
H: So, thought that they were a biological female. Their whole life.
L: Yes.
H: And then -
L: "This doesn't fit, this doesn't fit." And did do a gender transition to become David - David Reimer - but still ended up committing suicide, and because of all of that, right? Of these self-sacrificing experiences, basically, we have the concept of gender, we have the difference between what you are born with and what you express.
H: Or raised as or - yeah.
L: Yeah.
H: I got that that was a terrifying, sad story.
L: Yes.
H: That seems like a bad decision to have just said, "Well, this has gone bad; let's make it kind of worse," I feel like.
L: We didn't know any better. And I think that that's the case with a lot of sexuality right now is that we don't know any better, and so we have people just trial-and-error.
H: Yeah.
L: So, my own -
(18:00) to (20:00)
L: - and we can end with that and get on to the really cute animal [H laughs] - is that I was in high school having sexual experiences, (?~18:09) surging myself - so, I would ejaculate this liquid - and I looked it up online because that's where you go when nobody tells you -
H: Yeah.
L: And they were saying, "Yes, this is beer-piss, this is because you're drinking too much," which I wasn't [H chuckles], I just-, there's so much confusion -
H: "You're just peeing on your partner," is what they were telling you.
L: Yeah. I am grateful that people have had these mysteries that they have pursued in solving, but I wish that there was more research. More organized research.
H: I don't know, to me it seems like there's a lot of great research being done in the world, but maybe just the fact that you don't want to get-, like if you're a researcher in sociology or psychology, you don't want to get branded as one type of thing, you don't want to rock the boat because this is your profession and you have to do the thing that's gonna lead to you getting tenure or get your research published. Or it might just be kind of uncomfortable, and so the research gets done less well.
Like, I'd be very interested to see research on the sociology of sex work or pornography, and I feel like that's a really important thing to be looking at right now because it's a lot of people doing it; there's a lot of new kinds of sex work happening with the internet, and I don't feel like we're looking at it because I think we don't like looking at it.
L: Mm.
H: And that seems to be the things that you should look at - it's the ones that you don't want to look at. Oftentimes.
L: Hank Green quote!
H: Unless it's the sun. [L laughs] Don't look at the sun.
L: Is there research that you would like to do on sex? Like, if the "Hank Green Sex Research Institute" exists [H laughs], what would be your first funded project?
H: I think you have more money than I do. [L laughs] There is some research being done, but I feel like there needs to be more done one the effectiveness of different sex education? Especially because -
(20:00) to (22:00)
H: Especially because right now I don't know that we're really measuring the kind of sex education we're giving because a lot of it is self-taught now. Like, at this point, it's much easier to look up a video like a Sexplanations video than to suffer through an uncomfortable two-hour health lecture that's going to be affected heavily by the politics of the place that you live. Which is a kind of terrifying thought, that education can be so heavily affected by politics.
How has learning about sex changed in the last ten years? Like, how our-, like I remember being at the bus stop and somebody making a joke about "sixty-nine," I didn't know what that was, and there's no way for me to go find out why that's funny.
L: Mm-hmm.
H: Somebody said, "Ask your mom," and I was like, "Well, that's definitely not the thing, I know that's not the thing, so I shouldn't do that." But like, now, [unintelligible]. So, how has that changed, and how does that affect-, how is it affecting things like first sexual experiences or sexual behavior or teenage pregnancy? Which I think is going down -
L: Sex is going down. Not like "you're going down-"
H: [song reference] "Yelling 'timber.'" [L laughs] No, "IT'S going down, I'm yelling 'timber,'" not "You're going down." [they laugh] To some extent, the age of first-sex might be going up, education but also kids hanging out less. They're on the internet all the time.
L: Yeah.
H: And understanding why it is and what its effects are, and - there's a lot to be done there, that was not ONE set of research that I'm lookign at.
L: Well, if you ever get a microscope, we're gonna have plans for, like -
H: Mm-hmm, yeah, gotta do it the way Leeuwenhoek did it and look at blood and look at semen - first two things. That's just how it works.
L: Yeah.
H: That's the rules.
L: And I'll go get a tubal ligation and you can have my fallopian tube. [H laughs] I just think it's so fascinating.
H: Yeah! I love people who are doing research -
(22:00) to (24:00)
H: I love people who are doing research on themselves. [L laughs] It's one of my favorites. It sometimes it goes very poorly, but it oftentimes to me says, "I need to know this, and everything is in the way of me knowing it, and so the only way that I'm going to figure it out is that I'm going to stick a needle into my own eye."
L: Yeah. Let's come up with small (?~22:19).
H: Yeah. Do you want to meet an animal?
L: Yes!
H: It is the product of sex. Like all animals are. ... Wait, [on and off-screen laughter] no, that's not true!
L: [laughs] Nope!
[animated transition slide: "SciShow"]
H: Jessie -
J: Hey!
H: Was this animal made by sex?
J: Um, depends on what you define "sex" as.
L: I would say "no."
H: Yeah, I'm thinking "sex" versus "sexual reproduction" - two different things.
J: Yeah. So, it was sexual reproduction -
H: That's when two gametes join from two different parents to make a new animal.
J: Yes. As opposed to asexual reproductions when the female just clones itself, it's all its own DNA, and then it grows into its-, it's the same.
H: - a whole other thing.
J: Yeah, but the same DNA.
L: But there wasn't frog-humping?
J: So, what's your definition of "humping," like movement? [L gestures] So, -
L: Genital to genital.
J: So, cloaca possibly is touching?
H: But usually frogs are like spawn - like, they lay the eggs and then they inseminate the eggs, but that's not - ?
J: Well, this animal - so, what they'll do -
H: Can we see the frog?
J: Oh yeah, do you want me to bring her out? Him out? [H laughs] Him.
L: How do you know it's - [sees frog, inhales, silent "aw"]
H: [to frog] Oh, you're very cute.
J: Stumpy's a jumper. [chyron: "Stumpy, Austrailian green tree frog, Litoria caerulea"]
H: Okay.
J: You just do whatever, just don't scream if he jumps on you.
H: Oh, okay.
J: Yeah.
H: No, I'll be down.
L: [mimics overreaction of tossing frog]
J: [to H, his glasses] You've got eye protection there.
L: This is gonna be good.
J: So, this is a male and to reproduce, what they would do is he would clasp onto the female-, so he's a white tree frog or an Austrailian green tree frog, or in Austrailia they just call him "green tree frog," so you can call him a "dumpy tree frog." His name is "Stumpy," I didn't name him, my husband named him, so. He's Stumpy the dumpy tree frog. [H chuckles]
(24:00) to (26:00)
J: Stumpy the dumpy tree frog [H chuckles], and they live up in the trees, and to reproduce, the male would go down above some standing water, and he would call out, he'd do a little bark and call. And then the female would come along if she's ready to mate, and then he would clasp, give her a littlel hug from the behind, and then the sperm and the egg masses would join -
H: As the eggs are coming out?
J: As the eggs are coming out -
L: Externally.
J: - and then it creates little embryos into this egg mass in the standing water, and then -
H: - pebbles!
J: Yeah, exactly. So, it's like a "bear hug," so it's kinda like humping?
H: You've brought an animal that kinda blends the line, like, where's the line?
J: Everything's grey, right?
H: At some point, it is and is not sex, but we're not sure when it comes to Stumpy.
J: Yeah. Just depends on -
H: - how you count.
L: Oh, I can't handle it.
H: But there is at least a hug.
J: Isn't he super cute?
L: Yeah.
H: He is really cute.
J: He has huge eyes.
H: He's very shiny. Is he just moist?
J: Yes. So, amphibians have to stay moist. They do have lungs, and they do - (?~25:03)[unintelligible] breathing, you can see his throat going back and forth like that, pulling the air in and out. but they also breathe through their skin; they have air exchange through their skin, and if it dries out, then they die. They can't breathe, and they can't do their thing anymore
H: Suffocate? Bummer.
L: Okay, wait. Did you say why you know it's a male?
J: So, he's a little bit smaller and he has specialized little graspers on his feet.
H: For the hugging. [they laugh]
J: For the hugging. Yeah.
H: Little sexual dymorphic.
J: I like how he puts his little feet together, like [hums antique-villian style]. [H chuckles] He's conniving there. [L laughs, Stumpy moves, J speaks as Stumpy] "Oh, I moved pretty fast!"
H: [to Stumpy] Oo! Oh, your legs are longer than they look.
J: Oh yes, absolutely! These guys are great jumpers, and they are tree frogs; they live up in the trees, and they use their little sticky pads to [vocalizes sticky walking sound].
H: [to Stumpy] You have the narrowest hips.
J: [chuckles, speaking as Stumpy] "Thank you."
H: You have, like, no pelvis.
J: A little tiny one. And so he can jump and then -
(26:00) to (28:00)
J: He can jump and then stick onto things -
H: Use the sticky?
J: Yeah, sticky little pads. These guys are used in a lot of research because of those sticky pads; they want to see if we can use some of nature's technology.
H: Putting posters on walls. [L laughs]
J: Yeah. And they're actually used in other research, too. They have this secretion that they have over thir bodies. So, amphibians are really prone to - [to L] he might want to jump on you.
L: Mm-hmm. Bring it.
J: They're susceptible to molds and fungal infections because they have this really moist skin, and it's killing off a lot of amphibians, it's a big issue. But White's tree frogs, they are not declining, they're actually doing really good in the wild, because they have this cool secretion that has antibacterial and antiviral properties. And so, scientists are going, "So, why aren't you dying, too?" and so they're finding this out, and they're using it in HIV research and other different kinds of research, like a hunger suppressant and stuff like that.
H: Hunger suppressant?
J: Yeah, it's pretty cool, a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff with these guys. And they breed really easily in captivity; they lay up to 300 eggs at a time, and they're really calm. [to Stumpy] You're not into jumping today, bud, huh? You're into crawing though.
L: What inspires it to jump?
J: Just-, he wants better scenery?
L: Oh. [to Stumpy] Do you want better scenery? [J and H chuckle]
H: Oh no, he knows there are flies over there.
J: It's pretty fun when we bring him out to public presentations, and we'll have a volunteer come up, and we'll be going to hand him off, and he'll jump onto their face. [H laughs, to L] Do you want to hold him?
L: Yeah!
J: All right. Let's -
L: Do you want to wet my hands?
J: Yes. [brings out spray bottle]
H: Ah, spray bottle.
J: Yes. [sprays L's hands] We'll get a nice wet layer there for you. And the reason that - [places Stumpy on L's hand, L inhales in delight]. Cool, huh? The reason that we do the wet layer is because our skin is kept -
(28:00) to (30:00)
J: - our skin is kept nice and supple by oils, and amphibians are water-based, so we don't want to-, [Stumpy moves] oh, you see him wipe his eye off. We don't want to get the oils onto his skin because it could clog his pores and it'd be difficult for him to breathe, and he could absorb-, like if you wear lotion or something, he could absorb all those chemicals, and it's not very good. So, we always try and put a water barrier.
So if you guys are out there catching frogs and toads and salamanders, make sure you put your hands in the water before you handle them, and make sure they're near water after you let them go.
L: And so with most of the animals you have at Animal Wonders, they are not good pets. Like, you would not want someone to put this in -
J: Yeah, it's a tricky one. Like, what makes a good pet? I'd rather ask the question, "What makes a good human owner or human companion," because that's like - [Stumpy moves up L's arm] go, buddy! That's the real definer there, like, "Is this animal and this human going to cohabitate well? Are both going to be happy and healthy?"
So, these guys are a really common pet, partly because they breed so easy that they're cheap, and they are very forgiving with temperature and humidity and food sources and handling and they don't get stressed out really easy - so, basically, they're really hearty. So, people have them.
H: Well, that's good; that makes a good pet.
L: I might be in love.
H: Lindsey wants one. [L laughs]
J: So, they could make the right pet for the right person that wants to take care for them.
H: Is this max size?
J: So, they're called "dumpy tree frogs" for a reason.
L: [to Stumpy] You don't look dumpy.
H: Yeah.
J: They - [Stumpy moves]
L: [surprised gasp] He goes backward! [J and H laugh] Did you see that?
H: Yeah, I did.
L: Ohmigosh. Oh, you are - [to H] Do you want to hold it?
H: Sure.
L: Yeah, don't miss out on this.
J: [to Stumpy] C'mere. [to H] Would you like some water? [spritzes]
H: [to Stumpy] Hello, little dumpy-Stumpy.
(30:00) to (32:00)
H: - dumpy-Stumpy. [J places Stumpy in H's hands] Oh! Oh, sticky.
J: [to Stumpy] There you go, buddy. Okay - "dumpy tree frog" - they got their nickname because they love to eat. They just love to eat, and they'll eat lots of different things, and it's adorable when they eat.
So, they have their tongues attached to the front of their mouth, and they'll jump towards - say it's a cricket or something like that - they'll jump towards it, and they'll stick their tongue out and they'll grab and pull it in their mouth. But, if it's a little bit big - say it's like a big cricket or cockroach or something like that - they'll get it into their mouth and they'll take both hands and [gestures] shove it in their mouth [L laughs] and like, ["nomming" sounds].
It's so fun to watch, and so people are like, "Oh, they get this cute animal," and they feed it and feed it and feed it and feed it and feed it, because it's super cute. And so they get big fatty deposits because they're spoiled, they're just sitting there, they're not having to run away from predators, and go and hide and move from light and dark, and go and find their own food, and so - they're sedentary and they get lots and lots of food.
H: So they get fat.
J: They get big fatty deposits right behind their eyes, and so they look like they're big dumpy little dudes. [they chuckle] But we do not overfeed him, and so-, and he's a male, so he's a little bit smaller. [Stumpy moves up H's arm] He can climb up there if you're comfortable. He's good.
H: [moves Stumpy to hand, Stumpy flips to right himself] Oo! Look at all your legs.
J: He won't often fall. [they laugh]
H: He's very sticky.
J: One little toe and flips right around.
L: Are you going to find a female friend?
J: Probably not, because -
H: You don't want a bunch of dumpy tree frogs?
J: We don't want 300 babies to have to find responsible homes for. These guys aren't social in the wild; they just come together to mate and then they do their own thing.
L: Ooh.
J: So, there's no beneficial mental stimulation for him to have a companion. And the females are bigger; the female could end up trying to eat him or date. And it could not be compatible -
H: They might not like each other -
J: Yeah, so lots of complications.
[laughter as Stumpy stares at the wall behind]
(32:00) to (34:00)
H: [to Stumpy] Where ya goin? [Stumpy moves back up towards H]
J: Holding on.
H: [to Stumpy] There ya go.
J: All right - guesses on why they have huge eyes.
H: For bug-finding.
J: Mm-hmm, yeah!
H: Also, are they nighttime creatures?
J: Yeah. Nocturnal, and so they have limited color and detail and -
H: [to Stumpy] Oh, you're funny.
J: And so, they need to see something moving, so they have big eyes so they can see the movement anywhere, and if they see it, they'll jump and go grab it. But also another reason! So, their tongue is attached to the tip of their mouth, like the front part of their mouth there. Our tongue is down the back, and we use it to swallow our food and push our food down. But they do not use their tongue to help them swallow. Instead, they use their eyeballs.
H: So, they shove their eyeballs into their head to push the food down their throats?
J: Also known as "blinking," yeah. [they laugh] So, they blink -
H: When I blink, my eyeballs do not get shoved into my head, and -
J: I know. So, when they blink, it's like their eyeballs get pushed to the back of their throat, and they push whatever food is in their mouth down their throat.
L: Okay. I'm just gonna say - the fact that we know this because someone has done the research on "frog-eyeball binking" is unfair. [H and L laugh] Yes? Am I-, like...
H: Well, I don't know if they did the research or if they just watched.
J: They could've just watched [L sighs], and also that you can dissect animals without major...
H: Without having to submit to the review board?
J: Lots? A ton?
H: So much? [shakes hand]
J: Are you jostling [Stumpy] him?
H: I'm jiggling him, I'm jiggling him a little bit. Just to see what he does.
J: He doesn't seem to mind. He would jump off, if he hated that, he'd jump off.
H: Yeah, he has a jiggle.
J: Whenever I bring an animal on and [to L] I know that you're gonna be here, I'm like, "Oo, I need to look up the reproduction of this animal," and -
L: Aw, thank you!
J: It's actually, probably, one of the - [sees H shifting hand to make Stumpy move back and forth in place] Let's not [all laugh], let's not keep torturing him.
H: I'm just experimenting. [laughs, but stops]
J: These guys are not easily stressed out, so he's - you're okay.
H: You said that.
J: You're okay.
L: Maybe you shouldn't have a sex research institute.
(34:00) to (36:00)
L: - shouldn't have a sex research institue. [they laugh]
H: [Stumpy moves to H's knee] Look at how cute he is!
J: [to Stumpy] Hi, buddy! You can jump if you want to.
H: You gonna jump? [Stumpy jumps to J] Woo!
H: [gasps] Good jump!
J: Nice one.
H: I wish I had my slo-mo camera out for that.
J: That was a little jump.
H: Oh, does he jump farther than that?
J: Yes. Yeah, we were at - [Stumpy jumps to J's other arm] There you go!
H: Oh, good one.
L: Oh, so it puts up it's - he puts up his back... pads? Right before he jumps?
H: "Puts up?"
J: What do you mean? [unobtrusive, superimposed, close-up replay of Stumpy jumping]
L: He brought up his back pads [gestures with hands angled up from wrists].
J: Like this? [mirrors gesture]
L: Mm-hmm.
J: And then launched himself to get some momentum?
L: I think so.
H: Oh.
J: I wasn't staring at him enough.
L: [to Stumpy] Do you want to do it again? We're gonna study your behaviors. [J chuckles, L as Stumpy] "No."
J: Reproduction is probably the least-studied thing in animals as well, especially when they're not a social species and they only come together during their mating season to mate, and then they leave each other. Because it's hard to follow an animal around and discover that. So, there's a lot of animals that we just-, they're like, "We think mate anywhere between November and May." ... And we're like, "Oh. Okay." [chuckles]
H: "We're pretty sure these animals procreate."
J: "They have babies around this time -" [L reaches out towards Stumpy, J encourages Stumpy onto L's hand, whispering] Yeah, there you go.
L: [quietly] Does he wanna? [Stumpy moves onto L's hand]
J: But, okay, so the other story is we were at a senior home one time, and I was showing Stumpy off and bringing him through. And you know how they have glasses and they're looking real closely at him? And I had this old lady and she was so interested, and he jumped right onto her face and slapped right onto her glasses. And I'm panicking because it's an old lady [H chuckles], and often the stereotype with them is that they don't like snakes and amphibians and stuff like that.
H: Squirmy-squirms.
J: Yeah. But she was just like, [delighted] "Oh! Hahahaha!"
H: That's great!
J: And she was giddy that she had a frog on her face, and it was the best! Yeah.
H: I'll take a face full of frog.
J: Yeah, it was great. [they laugh]
L: [to H] You need a thumbnail?
H: Yeah, right?
J: Do you want to see? We can show off the sticky pads on glass.
H: Oh, yeah? Did you bring some glass?
(36:00) to (38:00)
H: Did you bring some glass?
J: Yeah. Oh your face.
H: Oh! [J moves Stumpy to H's face, Stumpy flails a bit]
L: [laughs] He's like, "No!" [Stumpy attaches]
H: Oh, yeah.
J: Yeah.
L: [laughing] Oh. My. Gosh!
J: [to Stumpy] Good job, buddy. Good job!
H: [to Stumpy] Hey! Ya happy?
[laughter]
J: [points] Look that way.
H: [Stumpy crawls up H's head] Oh, you goin' to see the hairs?
J: Do you have gel in your hair?
H: I do, yeah. [J gathers Stumpy] There you go, bud.
L: [chuckling] Ohmigod. What a cutie.
J: All right. [spritzes Stumpy with water, vocalizing]
L: Oh, it blinked.
J: There you go, yeah.
H: Yeah, it blinked.
J: Do you guys have any questions about him? He's about six years old.
H: Okay.
J: They can live about 15 -
L: How can you tell?
J: We've had him since before he was mature.
H: Okay.
J: And these guys-, they are-, [hands Stumpy to L] they don't get stressed out by socialization with humans, not easily. So, they will actually - [Stumpy jumps onto L's lap]
L: Did you see it?? It put it's back paws -
J: I totally wasn't looking again, darn it!
L: - not "paws" - pads -
H: And pushes off with his...
L: - something.
H: - ankles?
J: Huh. Okay. I'll have to look at that.
L: Now you know. What the signal is. [they laugh]
J: [to Stumpy] There you go, buddy. So, they will hang out, and they will tell you when they're upset by trying to get away or squeaking. They'll scream if they're really scared, and they'll squeak if they're irritated. So there are some good communications where you'll know that you should stop and put them back.
L: Have you heard it with him?
J: No, he's never squeaked with us. We don't generally do a lot of what Hank was doing, so. [chuckles] Pretty much, this was not (?~37:51)[unintelligible], let's put him back and let him be -
H: He seemed perfectly happy -
J: He was, he was fine. [H laughs, Stumpy jumps across L's hands] Good jumping! He's doing really good, like, -
(38:00) to (40:00)
J: - I'm proud of him - good job, buddy!
H: Good job, buddy.
L: I'm so happy!
J: I know.
L: I love your animals.
H: He's a really good animal.
L: Right?
J: He's great.
H: It's weird because they stick, but then they don't. It's like you can make them stick or not.
J: So, I don't think it's like "suction cup, then releases." It's more like he has muscles that he can just easily pull it off, and they're just wet; they're wet pads, but they have a structure to them that allow it to hold on more firmly.
H: Yeah, because when he was holding onto my finger, it was [gestures], -
J: Pretty sticky, exactly -
H: But then when he's walking around, he just lifts it off.
J: Yeah. So, he can move his toe a little bit more to create more of a suction and grip and just pull it off.
L: Okay, so I have another question: It changes colors, right?
J: Yeah.
L: He changes colors.
J: He does, yeah. So, they can't-, it's not like chameleons that do it by mood; it's actually depending on the light in the room and the warmth. So, right now he's been in a warm area with lots of light, so he's bright green, and if he goes into a darker, shadier area which is a little colder, he'll turn brown, and that's beneficial because he's nocturnal, and he's going to be sleeping during the day. And he'll wake up here and there during sleep period, but if a shadow comes across, he'll turn brown just like everything else is going to be in the shadow. And then, if it's bright, everything is going to be brighter. It also helps him thermoregulate, so if he is cold, turning a darker color is going to help him warm up faster.
H: [to L] How did you know he changed colors?
L: Because I watch Animal Wonders, Hank - youtube.com/animalwondersmontana. [they laugh] And you said in the name there's the word "white?"
J: "White's tree frog" - John White is the one that brought specimens to study -
L: Ooh.
H: The person.
J: Yeah, named after. And so he's an "Austrailian green tree frog," but he's green sometimes and brown other times, and they have cute little white speckles on their back end.
L: Aren't frog's legs a delicacy?
(40:00) to (42:00)
H: Probably not those frog's legs.
J: These are a little small.
L: [to Stumpy] You have tiny ones; we won't eat your legs. [they chuckle]
H: I've had frog's legs before, some big ones.
J: Were they good?
H: I mean, no -
J: They seem like they'd be like, [tough-chewing noises].
H: Like, fine. They're just food, definitely not a delicacy. But I don't know that it was prepared particularly well.
J: Sure, sure.
H: But like, bullfrogs - big frogs - you know?
J: Like, their legs are like -
H: Like dark-meat chicken.
J: Like a small chicken wing.
H: Yeah.
J: Are chicken wings dark meat?
L: [sings softly to Stumpy] "Your legs look delicious."
J: I've never had frog's legs-, [to L] did you just say that he "looked delicious?" [they laugh]
H: "I wanna nibble on your legs."
J: [gently takes Stumpy from L] I'll take him back now.
[all laugh]
J: [to Stumpy] Hi, bud.
H:[""] Hey.
J: [""] You're so good.
H: [""] Where're you goin'?
J: [""] You're going back to Lindsey??
L: Mm-hmm.
H: Now jump... [whispers] Do it.
L: See?? See, the pad's up.
J: He is sticking it-, he is sticking his feet up.
L: Pad's up. [to Stumpy] You and me, we're the same.
H: What?
J: How are you the same -
L: Big ol' eyes.
[laughter]
J: Okay, okay.
H: I mean, yeah.
J: Look at the little webs on his feet. Do you think he could swim?
L: Yes.
J: [shakes head]
L: He can't?
H: No?
J: [shakes head] Mm-mm.
H: Ah! It's good that there are some animals that can't swim. [J chuckles] Because I got into a lot of trouble by saying armadillos couldn't. It turns out they can.
J: They can! [H laughs]
L: Well, you posted that image of a bat swimming that was AWESOME.
H: Yeah.
J: Well, I bet any animal would TRY it -
L: [to Stumpy] Not you?
J: - but these guys will very easily drown if they get put in a big pool of water. But they like-, they still like to get wet, so they'll sit in little leaves up the trees - they're like little jacuzzis.
L: So then - [Stumpy jumps from J to L's shoulder]
J: Yay!
H: It's like a brooch.
J: You're a natural. You're just like, "Yeah. Frog jumps on me."
L: The eggs and the sperm when they come out - they're not in water?
J: They are in water - still water. [Stumpy wanders too far, J gathers him back] They have to-, they do go down and hang out. [gestures] There's a little bit of still water here,
H: Just puddles.
J: - and they'll hang out on a little leaf there [gestures slightly above], and do their little hug.
H: [affected judgy tone] An amphibian that can't swim... that doesn't seem right.
J: [chuckles] Eh, it happens.
H: [normal voice] Apparently. Everything happens.
[Stumpy travels from J's arm towards L]
H: [as Stumpy] "I wanna go see Lindsey -"
(42:00) to (43:08)
H: [as Stumpy] "I wanna go see Lindsey again.
L: It's love. [they laugh] You're like, my Frog Prince.
J: Don't kiss him, though.
H: Don't kiss him.
L: No.
H: You've got lipstick on.
L: No. [Stumpy jumps to L's shoulder] See?? It's love! [they laugh]
J: Cutie.
H: That's really good. [chuckles] Hey, Stumpy... [J bringing Stumpy to H], thanks for visiting today.
J: [to Stumpy] Wanna go? See, go say hi to Hank.
H: [""] Okay, hi! It was a pleasure to have you on the show. You are an excellent guest and are very cute. [to L and J] You are also both excellent guests; thank you for joining us. [to camera] If you want to know more about what Jessie is up to - youtube.com/animalwondersmontana. And Lindsey has a new podcast called "The Sexplanations Podcast" also at youtube.com/sexplanations, which tells us all about sex.
L: We talk about sex. And it's awesome!
H: It's good.
L: Get curious with us, learn more!
H: Thanks for watching, thanks for hanging out with us, we are at youtube.com/scishow, [chyron: "youtube.com/scishow"], and we appreciate you being here.
[outro]