Sexplanations podcast, episode 15, I'm Dr. Lindsey Doe, clinical sexologist, host of the YouTube channel Sexplanations and this podcast by the same name.  Joining me today is my uncle, Keith.  You are my mother's younger brother and uhh... let's see, what can I say about you?  I remember a story from my childhood where I think I said a swear word and you guided me, you were like a really great adult figure who said, "Don't say that word."  What other memories do I have?  I think I visited you when you were in seminary school and I got my first UTI-urinary tract infection-and I didn't know what was going on and I was at your house so I just kept going back and forth to the bathroom.

K: I don't remember any of that.

L: Well, yeah that's okay, you had nothing to do with it.  It was just my body.

K: I do remember when you were very young, before Ryan was born, just before.
 
L: My brother.  My younger brother.

K: Ryna, your brother was born.  I went and helped your parents packing up, got ready to move down to Florida, and I sat down and you crawled up in my lap and went to sleep.

L: Awww.  That's cute.  Aww.  Well, today I have invited you on to the Sexplanations podcast because you are a minister in Kansas, rural, rural, rural Kansas, and I feel like you're one of the few people that I can talk to religion about, and have an intellectual conversation to kind of pull apart what's going on in the [Christian] Bible, and what's going on in society and have a, you know, a rational, loving dialogue where sex meets religion.

K: Uh, we'll see.

L: *laughs* We'll see.  No it's gonna be rational and loving. Alright, um, first, before we do that, a shout-out to Laura Shuester Palmniks and Donna Flint Madeo Sullivan and the Millers for being our boss level Sexpla(i)nauts.  They go to Patreon.com/sexplanationspodcast and get this cool perk, you can do the same thing, sponsor unscripted sex education like we're doing today, and get a test question in their honor.  Do you wanna ask me a test question, a multiple choice question about sex and religion, or do you want me to ask you one?

K: I want you to ask me one.

L: Okay.  I don't know if you're familiar with the Mormon religion,

K: Not heavily, but go on.

L: The Latter Day Saints.  So I am told there's this concept called soaking, and I'm gonna give you possible definitions for it, and you tell me which one you think is the meaning of soaking.

K: Soaking? S-O-A-K-I-N-G?

L: Yes.  Soaking.

K: Ok.

L: I have heard this connected to the Mormon religion, and I have spoken with young people who identify themselves as Latter Day Saints and they say they do not know what this is, so I cannot...

K: You can't verify it either way.

L: I can't verify it.  But the concept still exists, this idea of soaking.  So, is it A: Being in the same swimming pool, and thinking that you can get a person pregnant if you ejaculate.  B: Putting a penis in a vagina, but not moving around, therefore believing it is not intercourse.  C: Putting a finger in a vagina and not moving it around, or D: Oral sex, a penis in a mouth, that isn't perceived as sex.

K: Boy, I have no clue.  I don't even know where I go with that.  If I had to pick any of them, I'd probably, I guess I'd probably pick B, if I'm thinking right that it was putting a penis in a vagina and not moving it around.  That would be my guess, but I have no clue.

L: You got it right!

K: Well, I got lucky.

L: Yeah, if we know, if we, if any of you are Mormons or Latter Day Saints, if that's how you identify yourselves, please let us know if soaking is a thing you've come across.  This idea, right, that you can penetrate but it doesn't equate to sex, therefore you have not sinned, therefore you, no act prior to marriage that would get you in trouble: soaking.  You're nodding your head, what to you think?

K: You know, you know, whatever.  I mean you can come up with all sorts of ways of doing things, and justifying why you do 'em, so I guess that makes sense, it.. but yeah.

L: Yeah.  Have you come across similar things, in your congregation or in your experience just being around the church where people have justified certain sexual behaviors?

K: Well, the ones that come to mind first would be kids, you know, fondling each other to bring 'em to climax or oral sex, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - but by-, because they didn't have traditional sex, they would say that was not, "We're not having sex. It's oral sex."

L: Mm.

K: Kinda like the, the President Clinton.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: "I did not have sex with that woman." Well... that depends on how we want to define "sex."

L: So how do you define "sex" for your congregation, and for those of you who aren't familiar, "congregation" is a term that refers to the people your-your audience, essentially, of your church -

K: Yeah.

L: - as you are their leader.

K: I don't spend a lot of time talking about sex with them, -

L: No??

K: - the congregation, no.

L: Oh my goodness.

K: Not on a large-group scale. One, because I have, within that congregation, I can have anywhere from a one year-old to, you know, 90-something year-old.

L: Mm-hmm?

K: So I'm not going to bring up a lot of different topics, and you have varying degrees of how conservative people are, and there's a certain amount of respect of saying, "This should be something that the parents should be teaching." Now, I wen-, my, in youth group talk about, have us talk about sex.

L: That's awesome.

K: But I would not have it, generally, probably within a sermon. And there's other aspects of that, you know. If I'm guaranteed that no one's going to show up, no one outside of the congregation is going to show up, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - it's a little safer to go into that kind of conversation?

L: Mm-hmm?

K: But if you get someone outside of the congregation, and you talk about things that they're not ready, they don't understand me, -

L: Right.

K: - they don't have-, there's no trust-relationship built, and it doesn't mean that I don't-, I'm not there to answer questions, I mean, I have people ask me questions about different things or raise different things, and then I'll have conversations. But a general preaching on sexuality, no, I'm-I generally stay away from that.

L: Well, how do you guide your youth group? What ages are they?

K: Well, if I would do a youth-talk, and I have done youth-talks, I could have anywhere from, you know, 7th grade through high-school age.

L: Okay.

K: I've had conversations with college kids, too, not a lot, but I've had some. You know, again, it's a lot of-a lot of it deals with abstinence, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: You know, and that's generally where we begin, because that's, yeah. I have one individual, he and I are talking, he wants to get an app that I would have that he would use on his phone and on his computer because he's concerned-, he doesn't want to look at pornography.

L: Okay.

K: And what this app would do is that anything-time he does, a website would pop up on his computer, it would also-, I would get a list of that. And this way, he's staying accountable.

L: Ooh, okay.

K: So, and those things are out there, because he wants to be accountable, and he just has, you know, it's a temptation for him, and I'm like, "That's fine, we can do that."

L: But then-, then let's say he goes to one of these sites that shows up on your phone, -

K: Right.

L: And how do you participate as the person that's keeping him accountable?

K: Well, at that point, obviously we-, one aspect of it is we would have a conversation of what led to that, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - you know, and why that came up, and what led to it, and how he could guard himself in the future, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - what, you know, there are certain things. I mean, obviously in our life, like, if you're an alcoholic, -

L: Right.

K: Right? And you wanna stay on the wagon, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: You don't go a-walkin' into a bar with your friends, the same bar, and you sit down -

L: Right.

K: -  in the same stool you sat in for 10 years where you drank and got yourself -

L: Right.

K: -  drunk. You understand that there're certain boundaries you gotta create in your life and certain things you gotta remove in your life to protect yourself from doing the things you don't wanna do.

L: Right.

K: So, the conversation would be, "What happened, how did this happen," and begin the talk about how how we could change that. I'm not trying to impose boundaries upon him.

L: Right.

K: You know, I don't go in and say-, I'll tell people at times, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: But only if they invite those conversations. You know, like the conversation you and I had yesterday in the car with Derek, it was a matter of inviting into the conversation. But I don't generally-, I try not to, unless invited in the conversation. Now, in a preaching situation, I'm invited to present certain material, but there's not a lot of material that deals with sexuality within scripture.

L: Oo! Okay, let's talk about it.

K: Let's lead into your -

L: [laughs] I mean, you and I have been talking about sex and religion for a couple days now, -

K: Right.

L: And we also have a relationship that stretches my whole life, so I have a lot of trust built up with you, and I also recognize that as a person who has -

L: - a faith and a set of beliefs that maybe not everyone agrees with, you're very, very respectful of other people's paths and their, their own system of beliefs, which I think is incredible and also part of the reason why I am sharing my audience with you, to say like, -

K: Mm-hmm.

L: "Hey, everyone! This man here, he-he's good people! Let's try this conversation." And what I told you is that the main thing I wanted to talk about was onanism, -

K: Right.

L: So, I'm glad we went into pornography, I wasn't expecting that, cool. [laughs]

K: It would've come up!

L: Yeah, okay, good! Onanism - my understanding is that there is a character in the Bible named "Onan."

K: Right.

L: And, I'm not sure who his brother was, do you remember -

K: "Er," -

L: Er.

K: There was an older brother named "Er," and there was a younger brother -

L: Okay, yeah-yeah, you tell the story.

K: Right? Oh, you want me to tell the story?

L: Yeah, yeah, yeah!

K: Okay. So there was a father who was "Judah," -

L: 'Kay, Judah.

K: Judah's the father, he's one of the 12 sons of Jacob - just kinda give you a little background, Jacob, the 12 tribes, and all that to become Israel. Judah has three sons and the oldest being Er, and Er, he has an arranged marriage with a woman by the name of "Tamar." And Er does something and dies, I don't remember what it was exactly, but he dies, and the proper way to handle that situation - he doesn't have any offspring, doesn't have any children - 

L: Er doesn't.

K: Er doesn't.

L: Okay.

K: And it's spelled E-R, "Er."

L: 'Kay.

K: And basically, the tradition was that if you had any brothers, those brothers would fulfill the duty of going in and producing an offspring, and when we talk "offspring," we're talking "male," -

L: 'Kay.

K: A male offspring for the older brother. Okay, so that's-, and Onan - the second brother, the younger brother - his-his dad, Judas says, "Go do that, that's-, fulfill your responsibilities as a brother, and go do that," -

L: Levirate marriage.

K: Hm?

L: Levirate marriage, L-E-V-I-R-A-T-E, I think, is how it's spelled?

K: I'm not aware of the expression -

L: Yes, I think -

K: - but I'll-I'll go with that.

L: - it's the Hebrew law that you -

K: Yeah.

L: - have to marry your older brother's widow -

K: Right.

L: - to create -

K: An offspring.

L: - the heir to his -

K: Right.

L: - property, etc.

K: Right.

L: So, that is Onan.

K: That's Onan. And he goes in -

L: And he goes to -

K: - and the way that I interpret the story is he goes in and he basically practices contraception! In a sense. He avoids -

L: Yeah! Withdrawl.

K: - he has sex, but he pulls out early. He's not "soaking!"

L: [laughs]

K: [chuckles] He's not "soaking!" But he pulls out. And he spills his "seed," his semen on the ground.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And he doesn't want to do this. And I am not sure, I haven't read it that closely - the law - but I wasn't necessarily under the impression-, well I guess they would've had to marry; so either he doesn't like Tamar, -

L: 'Kay.

K: - and he doesn't want to marry her, -

L: Uh-huh.

K: - or the other possibility is that if the first child that he has is going to be this "offspring," this "heir"-

L: Mm-hmm.

K: - for his brother, Er, his concern may have been that he wouldn't get as much inheritance.

L: Oh, of course!

K: Right?

L: Because Judas' would've gone to Er, Er's would go-, would have gone to Onan, but instead, Onan has to create a son -

K: Well, here's how it would've worked:

L: Okay.

K: Judas' would've gotten split up between the three sons.

L: Oh, right, okay, yeah-yeah-yeah that's true.

K: Right? Okay, but understand the oldest son got a double-portion; the oldest son would've gotten 50%, the other two sons would've each gotten 25%.

L: Why would the oldest son get 50%?

K: Because that was the tradition.

L: [raising in pitch] Aah, okay?

K: Okay?

L: [even higher] Suure?

K: So now, if my brother, Er -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: Doesn't have any offspring, I become the oldest son, I now get two-thirds -

L: Mm-hmm -

K: Because it's the only-, I get my double-portion, and my younger brother only gets one-third.

L: - one third.

K: I don't know that that was the motivation, but we could debate, we don't know, we're not told in the scripture what it is? But, like, you know, as you noticed or mentioned, "onanism," - or whatever it's called - 

L: Uh-huh?

K: - because I've never even-, if I-I'm sure I've read it someplace, but never really remembered that as an expression for masturbation. And that was a big thing. People would look and say, "Oh! Here's what Onan did, he-he masturbated and spilled his seed on the ground, and then God killed him, and this is why we're gonna, -

K: "- we're gonna judge or say why masturbation is inappropriate, is a sin, is-," whatever you want to describe it, "- is immoral."

But I don't think that's what he did. I think he pulled out early.

L: He did!

K: And that's the way I interpret it.

L: So, why-, okay. Is there any other place in the Bible that says masturbation is wrong?

K: No.

L: Ss-,

K: There is, there is scripture -

L:  [chuckles]

K: - in the Bible that talks about "nocturnal emissions."

L: Oh, okay. What does it say?

K: Okay, so there some-, there's one in Leviticus and one in Deuteronomy and basically says if a person has a nocturnal emission, that they need to go outside the camp for a period of time, and then get cleansed and come back in.

L: "Nocturnal emission," by the way, being another term -

K: Right.

L: - for "wet dreams."

K: - "wet dreams," yeah. So, you know, and what you gotta understand, part-, a lot of these laws were set up especially in terms of "cleansing." And if we assume that there were 600,000 men and how-many women and children travelling around for 40 years in the wilderness - population being well over a million, possibly upward of three million people, the size of the population of Chicago travelling around with no running water, no sanitation system, -

L: Yeah.

K: There had to be some very strict laws on how to keep everyone healthy.

L: 'Kay.

K: So they had these very strict things on, you know, "If you do this, you gotta do this; if you did this," - menstruation was one of those -

L: Well, because they didn't know what it was!

K: They didn't fully understand.

L: They thought-, there was a time even well after we had the whole medical field and you're, you're looking at, like, -

K: Yeah.

L: - "modern-day" technology that they believed the semen from a wet dream was the same symptom of gonorrhea. So they thought that-, yeah. It was, -

K: I don't know exactly how much they-, what they saw, Jewish culture, -

L: Right.

K: - but again, they were just being safe.

L: 'Kay.

K: So that was the thing. But there's nothing that says that was sinful to have a w-to have a nocturnal emission. Okay. Or have a wet dream, they didn't say, "Oh, that's terrible." They just acknowledged that it was something they needed to treat in a healthy manner. Okay?

L: Okay. So that-, they -

K: [unintelligible] Yeah, it's just to say, "send the person out,"I mean, there were all sorts of things a person could do -

L: [chuckles]

K: - that would cause someone to go outside the camp, and have to spend time outside the camp until they got cleaned up and came back in. So, that was just -

L: Yeah.

K: - good sanitary practice.

L: Okay.

K: In their minds.

L: So there's two verses -

K: Two verses for nocturnal emissions, there's -

L: And zero for masturbation. That you know of.

K: Zero for masturbation-, there's nothing. You go into the NEW Testament, they start talking about different "porneia," which of course we get the word "pornography" from.

L: Oo, tell me! I don't know this.

K: Okay. So that was just -

L: What's "porneia?"

K: "Porneia" is a word they used to talk about, exact translation I probably can't give you, but it was just se-, different types of sexual practices - generally promiscuous sexual practices.

L: Okay.

K: Okay?

L: It's called "porneia."

K: Yeah.

L: And that is in the Bible.

K: Yeah.

L: And that -

K: And the Greek. Remember, we're in Greek, that's a Greek word, so in an English translation, it's going to show up as... Well, there's a couple different ways they translate it, but just "generally sexual practices, illicit sexual practices," or something along that line.

L: And it's-, it's judging them one way or another? Or is it just referring to them?

K: Well, it's generally would what would be referred to as "inappropriate sex-," it would be considered sex outside of marriage. And whate-, you know, you could apply it to a laaarge range of things when you say, "Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman," it could be applied to a number of things.

L: So. In the Bible, -

K: Yeah?

L: Or in other texts around the Bible that you would use as part of your education about Christianity, does it say anything about sex within marriage, with a woman, where the penis penetrates an anus?

K: So, anal sex? No. To my knowledge, no.

L: So, that would be okay.

K: Okay, it -

L: [laughs] If you don't know, that's okay! I'm just wondering-

K: Well, what I'm saying is there are certain boundaries -

L: Okay.

K: - that are created.

L: Okay.

K: Sex between two men, would be considered inappropriate. Sex between two women is deemed inappropriate, sex between -

L: - before marriage -

K: - a related, you know, people who are related, through marriage even, you know, in terms of like a step-mother and a son. You know, step-son.

L: Okay.

K: That would be considered inappropriate. Sex between a brother and a sister or half-sister would be considered inappropriate.

L: Sex before marriage.

K: Sex before marriage is inappropriate.

L: Extramarital sex.

K: Extramarital sex - adultery - is considered inappropriate.

L: Okay, so we have all these inappropriate things -

K: Right.

L: - except sex between a man and a woman in a marriage.

K: Yes.

L: But does it say what kind of sex?

K: No.

L: So, oral sex -

K: Oral sex is -

L: - or anal sex, -

K: - not specifically identified.

L: Okay.

K: So, there are some things, and the interesting thing within the church is, you know, people get, - we want to, we want to start creating boundaries. Okay? Because you create boundaries to protect. Okay? So, the scripture says you don't want to lead someone to sin; if you lead someone to sin, if I lead a child to sin, it says-or if I cause a child to stumble, it'd be better off for me to have a millstone tied around my neck, and I'd get thrown into the ocean.

L: [exclaims] Whaaat??

K: Yeah. So, that's in Matthew. Anyway!

L: [vocalization]

K: There are these things, and so you want to be mindful-, for example, let's talk-, go on about onanism or masturbation.

L: Yeah, yeah.

K: So, here I am, and I go, "Okay, I recognize that there is no prohibition to masturbation." So I can-, anyone listening right now and says, "Well, I like to masturbate," I can't tell them, "In scripture, -"

L: Mm-hmm?

K: " - this is a sin."

L: Right.

K: Now. Let me mention, there are some caveats.

L: Okay?

K: Okay. So! Jesus says, you know, you have heard that it says that if you have sex with another woman outside of marriage or a woman has married and you have sex with her, it is adultery. Right?

L: Yes?

K: Jesus then says, "But I tell you, if you look at another man's wife and lust after her in your heart, you've committed adultery with her.

L: 'Kay.

K: Okay? So Jesus has raised this bar. So now we begin to talk about lust. And if we say, "Okay, now Jesus now says that lust is sin," and I now say, "Okay, so I know young men, -"

L: Mm-hmm.

K: "- I understand what motivates young men, I understand the accessibility of pornography, -"

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And even more so now in our internet-age, -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And someone wants to masturbate -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And a lot of young men, what do they do when they want to masturbate?

L: Use imagery of... people.

K: Mm-hmm? They watch, they look at -

L: They look at porn.

K: They look at porn. So now we run into a question is of saying, "The physical act is not sinful. However, is there's lust involved?" I don't know. That's the question. And I won't say that every person - every moment that someone masturbates - there's lust involved. I'm not gonna -

L: Right.

K: - lay that on, I just recognized that's an issue.

L: Yeah.

K: I recognize there's shame and guilt involved. Which can also be a very difficult thing for an individual, they're struggling with it, and unfortunately, the church is partially responsible for that, I understand that.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: So, I don't wanna-, I'm not making a big deal, but I do concer-, I am concerned for anyone who is dealing with those issues, because I don't want them to feel guilty or shameful or -. The other problem with shame and guilt is that can lead them to break relationships. Let me give you an example, as I kinda did some little background reading on the topic -

L: Oo?

K: And I found a book that came out in the 70s, and it was about an author, and it was talki-, it's called Handling Your Hormones by Jim Burns. And he talks in particular, one of the topics is masturbation, and he does not come out strictly against it.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: But again, he mentions caveats.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And he talks about a young man who came to him and said he was masturbating NUMEROUS times -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - during the week. Such to the point that he was breaking off relationships, and such to the point that he wasn't involved in the activities that he'd be involved, to the point that it occupied basically every moment of his life.

L: Okay.

K: It became an unhealthy obsession, -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: - and rather than a healthy release.

L: Right.

K: And you recognize that, I mean, you're -

L: Of course!

K: - educated, you recognize that sex can be very addicting, -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And so that's the other side of this. When does the-, when do I deal with masturbation in terms of, "Okay, the act is not," -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: "- specifically. But when does it become-,"can a person who understand that, can a 13 or 15 year-old boy understand, "Where are the boundaries? How do I maintain boundaries? When do I-?" So, it's hard for me just to say, "Oh, yeah. Go do it."

The other thing we can run into is, obviously, in masturbation, it is a different type of sex, and it's very self-centered in a sense. In a sense, it's very self-centered because you're focused on whom?

L: Yourself.

K: Yourself. Okay.

L: [laughs] That's like saying urination is self-centered!

K: Let me, let me, let me f-, you know. So, what ends up happening, if people, -

K: - and I-, again, I come from a very male point-of-view in terms of-, I'm focused on what the men are doing, not what the girls are doing, not what -

L: Okay.

K: - 'cos I don't know, I don't know what it's like, obviously, like, to be a woman.

L: Okay.

K: So, does this, can this lead to men being, in sex... selfish, pleasing themselves when they have intercourse with a woman. You understand what I'm saying?

L: Yes. And I also think that could apply to every human behavior where the problem isn't the behavior, itself - it's the intention and the context.

K: Right. So I-, let me-let me add one more thing in here.

L: 'Kay.

K: I have come up with a concept of what I call, "sins-of-excess."

L: "Sins-of-excess."

K: Okay.

L: This is your concept.

K: This is my concept, I have no idea-, I've never seen this written down, I don't know if it exists, - okay.

L: Okay.

K: It came out of what is called "the seven deadly sins,"

L: [chuckles] Okay.

K: The seven deadly sins are things like lust, greed, -

L: Sloth.

K: Sloth, gluttony, -

L: Yup.

K: Okay?

L: Mm-hmm.

K: And we were talking about balance earlier -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: Love is a very beautiful, wonderful thing. Right?

L: Mm-hmm.

K: I even think sex is a beautiful, wonderful thing; God created this wonderful body, they have wonderful feelings -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: - during sex. I truly believe that. But when it begins to get out of proportion - out of balance -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: Then it begins to become about lust or becomes about self-gratification, how you might wanna look at it. Or proper eating!

L: Right.

K: Is a good thing. But what if it becomes about eating anything you want any time you want and becomes gluttony?

L: Right.

K: Ah, you know, money we need. It's good to have a good economy, it's good to have good interchanges, but when it becomes also centered on greed, -

L: Right.

K: Then, you understand my "sins-of-excess?"



L: Yes.



K: It's, it's just when things become out of balance. So masturbation, in and of itself, is not a sin. However. Masturbation can cause - maybe, if the person does it - can get out of balance. That's the concern in-



L: Can we say that the person can get out-of-balance, though?



K: Right.



L: Rather than the masturbation?



K: I-, right. I agree!



L: 'Cos, I think, -. So, I did an episode on the effects of porn, - 



K: Right.



L: And what I found in my research is that the porn itself isn't problematic, it's the person who is taking in that pornography.



K: Right.



L: So it depends on how the individual uses it and how it effects THEM, not the porn having this effect ON people.



K: Right. Right.



L: I think, I think. At least that's what we've come up with so far.



K: Here-here's the side of that, interesting thought: When I was in college, I remember a professor - I think it was my first year or second year - Psychology professor, and he was talking about pornography, and he said, "Oh, porn's not bad. I actually think we should give it to sexual offenders because that would relieve these sexual inclinations they have and all that," -



L: Mm-hmm?



K: And at the time, I thought, "Well, that might make sense, I don't know." But as I realized it, one of the things about addictive behaviors is that in order-, we're always striving-, a person is always striving for that high, "How do I get back to the first high? How do I get back to that?"



L: Mm-hmm?



K: And because there's a kind of sense of, you can't achieve it "unless I get a little bit more -



L: More.



K: - extreme, I get a little bit - ." So, my thought with him was, "Actually, that's probably not going to work, because I gotta get so much more."



L: Mm-hmm.



K: And yeah, I mean, there's-there's people can look at porn, it'll have no effect.



L: Mm-hmm.



K: Okay. Visually, it's like, probably not that exciting. 



L: Mm-hmm.



K: However, if they might read an erotic novel, they'd get more out of it.



L: Mm-hmm.



K: But there's also the point - depending on the person, and depending on how they're wired - they might need more and more and more and lead 'em into places where they might become destructive - 



L: Right.



K: - in their life. So that, that's a challenge. And again, going back to masturbation, I don't want someone to say, "Oh, well if Pastor Keith said, 'dah-dah-dah-dah-dah,'" - and because we often hear what we want to hear - 



L: Mm-hmm?



K: - and not hear the caveats that go on. So I'm-I'm concerned about that, because-, and anytime I teach and say something. The nice thing within the relationship of a congregation of a group of people is I can have question and answers - 



L: Mm-hmm?

K: - and begin to flush out what that might lead in an individual's life rather than what it might lead to someone whom I may never meet when I'm doing in a podcast.

L: See?? We have similar jobs!



K: I haven't disagreed with that.



L: [laughs]



K: Yeah, I don't think I have.



L: Which -

L: - I think is to say, we don't speak in absolutes, we share our knowledge and our experience, and we build around those ideas how each individual might experience it differently. So, for example, this might be pornography, masturbation, sex-before-marriage, homosexuality - these topics - we speak to what limits we have on our own knowledge, and then we say, "This is how this could vary from person to person." Which is sex-education and very important.



K: Yeah. I DO speak in absolutes, but I don't speak a LOT in absolutes because-, and we could go into those, but this is probably not the time and place to go into those certain absolutes. But I would say-, I would argue that pornography deals with lust, and therefore, sinful. No, I would go that direction.



L: Okay.



K: Okay? And I would say sex outside of marriage, you know, and we could define what marriage is, that becomes another topic -



L: [chuckles]



K: Um, but I would say sex outside of marriage - outside of, you know, two consenting adults -



L: Mm-hmm?

K: Um, and in my background would be "male and female" - would be sinful. 



L: Okay. So, what's your take on "sin," then? Because, -



K: "Sin is all thought, word, and deed contrary to the will of God," - that would be the simple, quoted definition of "sin."



L: And we are all sinners,-



K: Right.

L: - as human beings, -



K: Oh, definitely.



L: So, do you give the world, the people, etc. permission to be sinners?



K: I don't have the right to-, not-



L: [laughs]



K: [chuckles] - to do that. Nor do I-, I have a hard enough trouble dealing with it my own life let alone sit there and-, what you're asking me is, "Do I judge people."



L: Yeah.



K: Because you're saying, "Do I give permission to be sinners," 



L: Yeah.



K: - that's not my right to give them permission. If I say they're created by God, where does God stand on it, that's a whole 'nother different aspect of it.



L: I guess I'm wondering if you say, "Okay, you are a man, you love another man, you're not hurting anyone, you're a human being, -"



K: Right.



L: "- therefore you have your sins - this is okay. As your pastor, I will support you, and I want you to be happy, and-"



K: That-, yeah. I understand what you're saying - 



L: [laughs]



K:  - you're asking me if I'm going to judge someone or not. And I-, you're-you're, let me-, let's go onto topic.



L: Okay! Let's do it!



K: Lesbians, gays, bisexual, that's - 



L: Yeah, yeah!



K: Whatever, whatever we wanna do here.



L: Your-your daughter and her partner who are not married, - 



K: [undertone] Yeah, I don't have a daughter and her partner who are not married -



L: Let's try that again. [Both chuckle] Your niece and her partner who are not married- 



K: Oh! My niece and my partner - I can't think of who you're thinking about - 



L: [laughs]



K: But I-, oh maybe they'll come to mind. Okay, yeah! So let's, [unintelligible vocals], and that's a little bit different depending on how we define "marriage." Because marriage, what a lot of people don't understand, marriage was a civil custom for a long time before-after Christianity, it was a civil thing, it was a legal thing. People went to the courthouse and got it done, it wasn't done in the church for a really long time. 



L: 'Kay?



K: And then eventually, around-, if I remember the historic layout, ooh, right around 1000AD, they started showing up at the church to receive a blessing, and then around the 1500s, it moved into the church. 

So in Ireland, for example, you had certain places where marriages could be done, but they had to be done by the right person, it had to be done a certain way, and along that lines, because it was-it had a civil aspect. Remember when Ryan got married, there were all those signatures and all that witnessing that had to be done - 



L: Mm-hmm.



K: Because it had to be done legal-, because it has legal standing, okay? So there's a legal side of marriage. That's the legal side of marriage; now we can talk, there's also a spiritual side of marriage, but let's go back to the whole aspect in particular of lesbians and gays, which-, it's a hot topic. And it's a tough topic. 

And where I start, I ignore most of the scripture on it.



L: [laughs] Okay.



K: And the reason is because you can-, well, you can pull up-, there's various texts and dealing with, like, Sodom and Gamorrah; and then there's text in Romans; and texts in First Corinthians, chapter six; and First Timothy, chapter one; and there-, where it deals with this.



L: Okay.



K: But I began in Genesis, chapter two, where it's-, and even Genesis, chapter one, it says, "God created man, he created male and female." The ideal - the way that God created - was a male and a female. And the ideal situation was the man would-, and then we go into Genesis, chapter seven, where we have this beautiful scene of man not-, of being alone, and God said, "It's not right for man to be alone," - again, written from a male perspective - 



L: [chuckles]



K: - you know. And, and, "It's not right for man to be alone," and he-, so he creates a help-mate out of Adam's rib, right?



L: Mm-hmm.



K: And Adam wakes up, -

K: - and he's so overwhelmed, in my perspective, of Eve's beauty, that he breaks out in poetry. [reverent tone] "Flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone..." Here is this-, I mean, he's just enamoured with Eve - that's the ideal. That's how it was meant to be. That's how God created it. 



L: 'Kay.



K: But then we have this thing that screws everything up, there's this moment, right? [chuckles] In chapter three, where it all falls apart. And Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, and sin comes in. And the whole thing breaks down.
 
And it isn't just sexual issues, it's things like greed and gluttony and everything comes in. So, I'm gonna tell you the way God meant it to be was male and female.



L: Mm-hmm?



K: Okay? Outside of that, it's outside of the way God meant it to be.



L: [inhales]



K: Now, - now, wait! Let me finish!



L: [laughs]



K: Let me finish, don't worry! 



L: I was like, [mimics growling] rrr-rr-rr-rr!



K: Don't-, yeah don't-, you don't need to attack me yet - 



L: Oh I-, no, I don't want to -



K: This-this is-, because there's the other side of this: I understand... [vulnerable tone] I understand, that people have... these inclinations - maybe from birth - that they don't know what to do with. Whether it's to be with another man - a man with a man, a woman with a woman; whether it's to be, um, "I'm not right. I don't feel right. [shaky inhale] I want to be that sex and not this sex." And, I can't imagine... [quietly] how difficult that must be. I do not think I have a right to judge that person. [shaky voice] Mourn for them? ... Pray for them? Encourage them? Yeah.



You know, people wanna judge 'em. I don't agree. I think the church has struggled this, they, again, they're scared to-, if they-, how they open up the gate, where do they-... How they deal with it, they're scared on how it might, like, lead to other things. And we're scared! I mean, we get s-, fearful - 



L: Mm-hmm.

K: We don't want to lead people (?~37:34)[unintelligible], that's one side of that.



L: Right.



K: There are those who want-, DON'T want to understand, DON'T care to understand, DON'T want to even recognize the sin within themselves, and so they judge. And they don't recognize the grace of God, that God offers through his son, Jesus Christ, because there's grace, and God s-. See, one time I thought about it going, "What if one of my kids came to me and said, 'I'm homosexual. I'm gay, I'm lesbian, I'm-,'"



L: Mm-hmm.



K: And I thought, "I'd still love them."



L: Of course, you would! [laughs]



K: So it doesn't change. Now, you know, we talked about the other day, we talked about, "we pick our sins." 



L: Yeah.



K: And, the thing I always about and realize, especially in relationships to homosexuals - three times I've had fathers come to me, and (?~38:24)[unintelligible], of course, this was, the most recent one was 2015, but there was ones that went back to, I don't know, maybe about 2008, 2009. Probably after President Obama became, you know, came into office and started relaxing the things on homosexuality, and it became much more broader, -



L: Mm-hmm?



K: - accepted, and all this. And they said to me, "I think you need to say something about homosexuality." 



L: [chuckles]



K: [chuckles] And I said, "Well, that's real (?~38:51) inters-," and I said, "..."



L: [laughs]



K: I said, "Okay. So, le-let's take our high school, we got a hundred kids in high school, yeah? How many kids do you think in that high school are homosexual? Let's say, you know, three percent."

L: Mm-hmm.

K: It's-, I don't know what the statistics are, but I think three percent probably a good number. So we got three kids in there who are homosexual. How many kids do you think in that high school do you think are having sex outta marriage? Fifty percent? And the topic you want me to raise about is homosexuality?"

L: Aw.

K: "And ignore the other fifty percent of kids who are having sex outta marriage? Don't you think that's a little skewed? And mind you -

L: [laughs]

K: - these. three. fathers... had-, each had a child who had a child outta wedlock.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: They had turned a blind eye! To what their child had done, they had gotten [high pitch] over, maybe, the sin of their child because they lo-, I knew they loved their children. And they accepted what they had done. And so they had turned a blind eye to that sin.

K: But they couldn't turn a blind eye to this sin. My general interpretation, or my general thinking, if I began to talk about sexuality, I think-

You know, I fully believe the Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Transexual, and I don't know, we can add all the other -

L: Yeah?

K: - letters out there -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - have a general right to complain about the church.

L: [laughs] Okay!

K: Because I think the church is incredibly biased. I think if the church, fairly across the board, condemned all things that bibically are-, bibically, sexually are contrary to what is scripture. So I stand out and preach heavily against sex outta marriage -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: I stand out and preach heavily against rape, against-, you name it, and homosexuality can be thrown into there-

L: Mm-hmm?

K: Then! They can't say I'm being biased. Because I'm preaching against it all. But it's so easy for the church to pick one particular element and preach against that because that's an easy one, that doesn't affect hardly anyone in my congregation, [ascending pitch] it may not even affect ANYONE in my congregation! And so my congregation gets off free and clear. So I think that's the problem we run into, I think we need to recognize that.

But even more important, we need to talk about grace, and we talk about God's forgiveness, and God's love, and all sorts of other aspects. Um, I read a book - I've read a lot of books in my life -

L: [laughs]

K: [chuckles]

L: I can tell!

K: But one of the books I read was What's So Amazing About Grace by a gentleman by the name of Philip Yancey - written a lot of great books about faith - and in that, he has chapter about a guy by the name of "Mel White." Mel White grew up in an Evangelical home, became an Evangelical preacher - I don't know where he was ordained or any of that - was a ghostwriter for NUMEROUS people, many extremely conservative individuals, and Mel White wrote a book called Stranger of the Gate. You ever hear of it?

L: No.

K: Interesting book.

L: 'Kay.

K: But Mel White is homosexual. And he came out.

L: Hm!

K: And when I say he wrote, I mean, ghostwriter for, like, Oral Roberts and -

L: Yeah, wow.

K: - you know, very, very conservative individuals.

L: [chuckles]

K: And Philip Yancey struggles with this idea of grace and homosexuality and all this in this. And when I was-, I did a bible-study on this book, and I did it on What's So Amazing About Grace, I did it twice, and the second time I did it, every newspaper article, every book Philip Yancey mentioned, I tried to read.

L: Ah.

K: If I could get my hands on it, I read it.

L: Wow.

K: Including Stranger at the Gate.

L: 'Kay.

K: And when I read Stranger at the Gate, I saw in this - and maybe it's been a while since I've read it - I realized this topic was much more complex than I understood it. Much more complex than probably anyone underst-, here was a man who grew up in a normal family, struggled with this attraction to young boys his age, -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: - you know, young men his age,

L: Mm-hmm.

K: - adult men in his age, -

L: Mm-hmm.

K: - and so on and so forth. And STRUGGLED with how to deal with that in a very real sense, and never found peace with it until he came out.

L: Right.

K: Okay? And he went through all sorts of different things, you know: psychotherapy, electroshock therapy, -

L: Mm-hmm, yeah.

K: - aversion training, the whole deal, as far as I could tell. I mean, there may have been something else he could've done; it's not my place to judge.

L: Mm-hmm.

K: But I realized, too, the choice to live in that was not an easy choice, in especially society 25 years ago, it was a-a big deal. It was not simple, it'd be-, it's MUCH simpler to live as a heterosexual -

L: Right, -

K: - in our society.

L: Oh, right, right! Right!

K: You know? I don't have to worry about it. I can go get my wedding cake and -

L: Mm-hmm!

K: - I don't have to worry about someone saying, "No, I don't want to make that for you." I can go get flowers and I don't have to worry about those issues. I don't have to worry about judgement or condemnation or bigotry or any number of things. So I recognize that it's a hard decision to make; it's not my place to judge. I'm not saying God won't judge them.

L: Mm-hmm?

K: But I recognize God is also very gracious. And, uh, it's not my place.

L: Okay-

K: I-

L: I'll take that!

K: I think I need to tell them the TRUTH, -

and they need to work that out. But I know God is a loving god. And you know, people say, oh, I'm "too easy," I know I brought this up-, it's interesting, I mentioned I'd be on this - doing this podcast, doing this - with a couple individuals and said, "Pray that I don't screw up to badly."

L: [laughs]

K: And you know, the funny thing is the first thing they brought up was homosexuality, it's like - [high pitch] c'mon! "There's so many sexual topics. We can talk about! Why are we focusing' on this??" You know? "Why aren't we talkin' about encouraging kids not to have sex?

I mean, there are so many REASONS not to have sex outside of marriage: all sorts of venereal diseases and things that they can pass to each other, there's pregnancies - not as likely as venereal diseases, but there's that, there is the emotional things that can happen to a child who has, you know, depending on the age, doesn't understand what's going on, and all of a sudden they've had sex and they're goin, now they're dealing with guilt and shame an-and whatever things are going on in their mind.

So we-, I think we-we're focusing on the wrong things, and we need-, I'm not saying, as a Christian, I'm not saying that isn't-, homosexuality isn't one of those things, but boy, there's so much else that we need to be talking about.

Another thing to think about, and give you another church perspective where I think the church misses this, and it maybe in a certain sense your-your question about what do I say the congregation has some VALIDITY -

L: [chuckles]

K: Why not? But I remember going to a youth-, this is when your Aunt Sandy and I were first married - we were probably married about three years - we were sitting in the church where we were married, it was a junior high youth conference, and I had my arm around her shoulder, and someone came by and said, you know,  "You shouldn't be doing that in front of the kids." You know, "It sets such a bad example."

And at the moment, you know, you're just kinda struck, you don't even think, "Oh, I should say some...thing."

L: [laughs]

K: "What should I say, how should I respond back?" And I thought, "No, I'll just be quiet." But then afterwards, I thought, "Wait, somethin' here. I have a license to do this. I have a marriage. license. -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - that says I am allowed to do this. I have a ring on my finger that says I'm allowed to do this." And not to mention isn't it in the church where kids should be learning appropriate relationships? Why are we allowing them to learn about all this stuff outside, why aren't we teaching them how to treat each other inside the church, why shouldn't they come into the church and see the pastor holds his wife's hand? Or put his arm around? And see that there is appropriate touch? And it isn't some "evil thing" that we shouldn't be doing?

And yet, we do that. It's like we wanna make sex look so bad. And yet, God created this wonderful thing! This blessed gift that he's given us - why do we look at it so negatively?

L: I don't know!

K: I don't know either.

L: If you have the answer, please tell us! 'Cos I -

K: You know, for me, I think that sex is a wonderful thing? I see there needs to be boundaries? Your boundaries are gonna be different than my boundaries?

L: Mm-hmm?

K: My boundaries... will be dictated by scripture? And that understanding. And we could spend, of course, a long time discussing all-what-where those-, you know, like I said, you'd mentioned anal sex, -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: We could talk about oral sex, and then we can get all those sexual positions and all sorts of -

L: Well, yeah!

K: - different things. It's hard, because the Bible isn't as explicit, but a lot of times when it isn't explicit about something, it doesn't mean it doesn't have an opinion; it means that in that moment, it wasn't an issue that needed to be addressed.

So, for example, Jesus doesn't talk a lot about promiscuity and different things. He didn't, in particular, homosexual he doesn't mention at all. And so some people say, "Well then, Jesus wasn't against it." Well, within the culture he was working with, homosexuality wasn't an issue.

L: Mm-hmm?

K: When Paul writes on it, and he brings it up on three different occasions, it's an issue because it was practiced in the temples, it was practiced between-, at the higher nobility class, richer people would prac-, so there's different reasons why different things are mentioned at different points.

L: We could go forever.

K: We could probably spend a little more time, but yeah.

L: I mean, right? I'm thinking about how maybe the church right now is being brought up a lot into conversations about homosexuality and people who are transitioning in their -

K: Right.

L: - gender. The church is also going to have to address the conversation about polyamory and -

L: -young people's decision not to get married and asexuality, where they don't experience attraction in any direction, and so they're maybe -

K: Right.

L: - not fulfilling God's will of procreation -

K: Right.

L: - or whatever that is. So, yeah! We could go and go. First though! Before we wrap up, I want to do our weekly kegel exercises.

[jingle music with singers]
Feel your kegels if you're able,
Main! Squeeze!
[end]

L: So if you're not familiar with kegels, this is where you're clenching -

K: I know what kegels are.

L: Oh, good-. Good! Okay, well you don't have to do them, you can, but we as a group on Sexplanations podcast exercise together in this unique way every week. And the way that we'll do them this week is I will just count to eight, and we'll just do eight steady squeezes that'll be low-key, just lovely. Okay?

K: Okay.

L: [laughs] Do you do kegels at all? You know what they are. But do you do them?

K: I know what they are, I'm not sure how-how a male does them differently than a woman, so that-that's okay -

L: No! It's not!

K: Yeah, I wouldn't know if I'm doing them or not, but go on.

L: It's the same kind of clench that you would do to start or stop urination. And, actually, if the person has a penis and they have an erection, then they can put-, it's like what would cause the erection to go up and down.

K: Understand.

L: All right, okay. Let's count: [steady pace] 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. Was that fun?

K: Oh, it was a riot, -

L: [laughs]

K: - I can't tell you how much I enjoyed that. [chuckles]

L: Ooh, that's wonderful! Anything else you wanna add?

K: I think I probably said way too much. So -

L: Oh, I loved everything that you said. I think if a person doesn't identify as Christian then they might struggle with a lot of those concepts? But I think that you're speaking to Christianity and saying, "Within the framework of my religion and the people that I counsel, [outro music fades in] these are the ideas that I share with them -"

K: Right.

L: "- this is what makes sense for our lifestyle." And I don't get the-, at least I, I don't get the sense that you're telling other people how they need to live outside of that if they choose to not participate. I didn't get the sense that you were judging anyone. I feel like you're just holding space for people to get closer to a god of your understanding if that is what they want.

K: I hope that's what they would do.

L: Yeah.

K: I trust that they draw close to God. And, you know, for me it's-it's not just "God the father," it's "God the son," you know, "Jesus Christ and the holy spirit," and then allow his conviction to work in their lives and how they feel. There's a lot to be said, like you said, and I can't say all that needs to be said, so.

L: Okay. I am curious now, wondering if there is a study out there that looked at the quality of sex that practicing Christians have versus other religions or people who do not practice a religion.

K: There is an interesting study, I can show you a book -

L: Oo!

K: - that I have that deals with praying and talks about praying for each other and praying with each other. And it says - and this was done by a couple who are marriage counselors and all that -

L: Mm-hmm?

K: - and they said the quality-, sexual satisfaction is higher for those who pray for each other and pray with each other.

L: All right.

K: So, can look at that -

L: Yeah!

K: - and see what you can figure out.

L: I wanna see the research! I wanna do my own study!

K: Okay!

L: That sounds fascinating! And I bet there's something TO that. I think just the, the meditative state of caring about someone -

K: Yeah. That's gonna help, right there.

L: - or taking the time to value what's going on in that other person's life, regardless of whether or not you call that "prayer" is -

K: That's a starting point.

L: - that's great intimacy, right there. Okay. Well thank you for coming onto Sexplanations Podcast, it was wonderful having you. I also want to thank Cinema Studios for the production help, Complexly for producing this show, and Count Boogie for the jingles, "ancora imparo-" I'm still learning.

[music fades}