Hank: Hello and welcome to Dear Hank and John.
John: Or as I prefer to think of it, Dear John and Hank.
Hank: It's a weekly podcast where I, Hank Green, and my brother John, answer your questions and give you dubious advice, and bring you all of the week's news from both Mars and AFC Wimbledon. But first, John, do you have a poem for us?
John: I do have a poem this morning, but I thought we could start by just talking about how we're doing. How are you?
Hank: Oh, I'm okay, my refrigerator still isn't running so... I wanna make a video on how to deal with your refrigerator stopping working because apparently it is not an easy problem to fix!
John: Well, here's a broad observation, Hank, and I hope that you don't take this too personally but for 249,850 of the 250,000 years that humans have been on this Earth they haven't had refrigerators and we've done just fine as a species so maybe you need to suck it up.
Hank: (Laughs) Ah, fine. Do you wanna tell me, do you wanna tell me how you're doing?
John: I'm doing great, things are good here. My five year old son has just started school and it's so cute with the backpack and, and his little school uniform and everything, it's just adorable. I, yes, I couldn't be happier, it's a beautiful summer here in Indianapolis, the White River is at it's very, very finest. Life is good, and here is a poem by Emily Dickinson - Tell all the truth but tell it slant:
"Tell all the truth but tell it slant -
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind -"
I love this poem but I also don't know what it means. And, I've loved it for a long time and I've felt torn in two directions about it for the longest time, because... One of the things that's interesting about Dickinson's poetry is the sort of waxing and waning relationship that she has with religious faith and with the idea of the soul and I feel in this poem there is both the waxing and the waning, and I can handle one poem waxing and another waning but I'm not sure that I can handle waxing and waning within the same poem. But I love that line "Tell all the truth but tell it slant". I think it is a really, really good piece of advice when it comes to telling stories and also when it comes to writing. So that's today's poem.
Hank: Mmm. I very rarely know what to think about poems, John. (John laughs) Emily Dickinson in particular is something that, that was forced upon me in high school and I was like "This is clearly just somebody who put a bunch of words down in an order that, to them and to us, is completely arbitrary". And I need, I need you to give, to teach me how to feel things about these words that are clearly meant to say something but are so afraid of actually saying it.
John: Well the problem with saying things directly, I mean, that's, you know, that's a reasonable criticism of many poems and many works of literature, but the problem with saying something directly is that you end up saying it less effectively, right. Like, let me submit that if you just say there is a certain tension between innocence and experience in adolescence that leads to a simultaneous, like, thrill of the new and feeling of loss about one's childhood that one can never get back, like that isn't, that doesn't hit you in the middle, you can't identify with that. It doesn't feel as transformative as, like, reading about Holden Caulfield experiencing those emotions. So I think that there is something about language that can be, like, transformative and helpful in a way that just "saying something" isn't. But, uh, yeah. So I mean, that's, that's what Emily Dickinson is saying, I think, when she says "Tell all the truth but tell it slant." You know, we can't... If we just say the thing directly, a lot of times, it isn't as impactful, it isn't as moving and important to us. Should we move on to questions or do you want to continue?
Hank: Well, I wanna talk about poetry. Is that OK?
John: OK. OK, yeah, absolutely.
Hank: Just for a little bit. I, I will also submit that you know, there is both a problem and a solution in the way that I feel like poetry operates. The solution is that it's giving us an opportunity to think, it's kind of a... It's a prompt wherein, like, it's not saying "Here's the thing to think" it's saying, "Here is something that will make you think". And I appreciate that, I appreciate, I love things that make me think, and I think, you know, by not being all up front and being, you know, 100% this is the thing that I'm trying to say, it gives you the opportunity to fill it in. The problem that that solution also causes is that it doesn't truly function unless... It sort of relies on the reader and the writer to have come from a similar place, in that, you know, these... Well, not necessarily. I think that, it relies on them having come from a similar place if the reader is going to get what the writer intended for them to get.
John: Well, yes and no. I mean, look, a reader and a writer have to work in collaboration and a reader has to do their job just as the writer has to do their job, but, like, let me give you the example of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, the great American novel written by Mark Twain. You know, like, there is a right way and a wrong way to read that novel. It's not just, it doesn't just exist to make you think, it exists to make you understand some of the reasons that, that slavery is so unjust and that sort of like a demented moral conscience across a social order can lead to people believing that virtue is sin and sin is virtue. Like that's not trying to, like, make you think, it's trying to make an argument that will, you know, will change your belief system or affirm your understanding of humanity or challenge it. And I think, like, that, the idea that, like, you know, all readings of a story or a poem are equally valuable or there are no wrong answers in literature like there are in science, like I just dismiss that completely. I think that, you know, I think that authorial intent isn't particularly important, but meaning is and there are better and worse readings of a text, and it's just like science in the sense that our responsibility as readers is to try, to try to get to whatever truth might be inside a work of art.
Hank: Yeah. I feel you. In the case of a novel, I would understand it much more of, like, the, you know, the amount of information there allows for a more solid interpretation, but I think the economy of words in poetry, and also the, you know, the intent of it being a little bit, you know, like leaving room there for the reader to be a part of the work, it, in a way, it... I feel like without, without, you know, participation in Emily Dickinson's culture I would have a very difficult time understanding what Emily Dickinson's work meant.
John: No! I mean, it's right there in the text, like, you know "As Lightning to the Children eased with explanation kind" like, you know, we don't tell young children, like, you know, lightning is this terrifying bolt of electricity from the sky that will kill you. We're like, "Oh listen to the, you know, look at the beautiful lightning and then hear the big thunder" you know? And her argument here is right in the last two lines of the poem "The Truth must dazzle gradually or every man be blind". Like, if somehow, you know, the secrets of the universe and of God and the soul were revealed to us all at once, that like this, that truth would be blinding. Now, I don't agree with the argument of the poem necessarily but, like, I think there is a reading of it. Like, I don't think that it's, like, that hard, like I don't think that's it's a matter of like, you know, needing to understand, you know, what kind of house Emily Dickinson grew up in or, like, what color clothing she wore. I think it was usually white, for the record. (Hank laughs) But I think, you know, I think, like, the poem can stand on its own. Now not all poems can stand on their own but I think that one can.